Gold Coast Exterior: GC_01 [chef] [Anvil]

View and discuss completed claims here
User avatar
Infragris
Project Administrator
Posts: 1385
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:51 pm

Post by Infragris »

I think the most important question considering the temple is: do we want Imperial Cult architecture to have its own, unique style, or do we want each temple to adhere to the dominant architecture of the local town?

If we do the first thing, we would need to make (and continue making) unique temple buildings with their own design language (in doors, pillars, ornament etc.) My preference does not go to this: the Cult is a heterogeneous institution, and there is little reason for each convent to use a similar style, nor is this the way that Morrowind towns are usually set up. It would also be a lot of work.

If we go by the second option, we do not need a completely unique building but simply an edited version of one of the other Anvil houses made to look more grand. It might even be possible to make the temple using only existing assets (look at the temple in Stirk for comparison). Your recent house addons with the galleries are well suited for this purpose. I realize that it is frustrating to see lots of work being overhauled again and again (I feel the same way about those dock pieces), but 'm afraid that's simply the nature of iterative design. We can't always get it right the first time.

User avatar
worsas
Project Administrator
Posts: 2500
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:23 am

Post by worsas »

The way I see it the temple should always stand out in some way. It would be best to formulate the requirements it should meet before anything else is decided. If everything can be created in the needed quality with the existing pieces, there doesn't need to be a spare building. But I assume that in most cases there will be need for extra tiles and additions or even a spare building to make it right.
Closeup of the Anvil house.
It needs more contrast and grunge. It would be better to make it match the stirk textures, except that the color tint is made yellower. Three different plaster colors also seem a bit too colorful all in all (+ the trims that have yet another color). I hope you don't mind my nagging.
We can't always get it right the first time.
"Right" is very subjective. (edit: <--Forget that dick-shit) In my point of view, we cannot only steer for the ideal. We must find suitable compromises that also adhere to many other needs there are. To me it feels like we have run into a heavy misbalance, partly my own fault.

Edit: Considering that the imperial temples were cathedrals in Oblivion, I'm not sure why the slight basilican church is so problematic. Opposedly, thinking about a temple built from regular houses feels underwhelming.

Sorry for the heavy critics here.

User avatar
Saint_Jiub
P:C Council Member
Posts: 447
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:44 pm

Post by Saint_Jiub »

Not at all worsas :) I always appreciate critiques, especially because I agree with you that it's far from ideal when stuff has to be redone. I would rather know what everyone thinks and get something that we can all agree on, than have everyone say it's great and then 6mo later realize it's a trainwreck lol. I'll keep playing with it and see what I can come up with.

Regarding the Cult assets, I do agree that the most elegant solution is probably going to be to use the town assets rather than having a unique building. For instance, this is just a super quick mockup but we could have something like this:

Image

Where it's more like a monastic temple complex than a church. We can supplement the town architecture with some of the fort pieces (since the trim of the chapel windows uses this anyway) to give it a slightly more impressive look too. In the above picture, imagine a low wall around the whole thing, so you have a publicly accessible "church" area up front, a brothel tower off to the left connected by a skywalk, and then a private residence surrounded by gardens.

Going this route is going to make our lives a million times easier down the road too, versus having to make a unique temple building for each city.

User avatar
Infragris
Project Administrator
Posts: 1385
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:51 pm

Post by Infragris »

Looks like you beat me to it. Here's my quick mock-up:
Image

Couple of arcades at the back, space for a private garden, and probably one of the biggest buildings in town. I agree with Saint_Jiub that this should be like a monastic building: it's Cyrodiil's center for Dibella worship, so there should be plenty of place for worshipers, initiates, libraries, etc. Garnish this structure with temple windows, banners, flowers and ivy and it will look plenty impressive.

I think a basilica would be very appropriate for the cult of Zenithar: the first Roman basilicas were not churches, but covered marketplaces. The Imperial Cult functions fundamentally different from christian-like religions: the convents ae hermetic, inwards-looking orders with little concerns for the life of the poor or social affairs in the mortal world. A church-like space would work for some of the popular lower-class cults, like the Esha Cult, but I don't see them as appropriate here. In my opinion, the cathedrals in Oblivion were probably the worst design choice in the entire game.

User avatar
worsas
Project Administrator
Posts: 2500
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:23 am

Post by worsas »

I'm fine with discarding the previous temple. However, looking at the above complex, I wonder if it wouldn't be better to create a more spread-out property with an enclosed garden area (possibly a pool in it) with statues of dibella and other pieces of artesy (paintings, etc). Wouldn't that fit better with the nature of the cult?

User avatar
Infragris
Project Administrator
Posts: 1385
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:51 pm

Post by Infragris »

I'll keep that in mind. The design has to be adapted to the surrounding space anyway. I'm going to use a couple of Saint_Jiub's fresco's for the garden walls: that should get the message across.

User avatar
Saint_Jiub
P:C Council Member
Posts: 447
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:44 pm

Post by Saint_Jiub »

OK, I think this is going to be the final iteration of the Anvil house textures, if everyone is fine with it:

Image

User avatar
Saint_Jiub
P:C Council Member
Posts: 447
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:44 pm

Post by Saint_Jiub »

I have a proposal that I want to make now, before we unlock interiors and start serious work on quest and dialogue design:

Image

The ones marked red are all buildings that I think we can live without - several of them don't even have a function yet, and some feel like they've arbitrarily had a function assigned just to justify their presence (I don't think we need separate interiors for the upperclass weaponsmith and armorsmith, for instance).

I'm not going to pull a sasquatch and insist that Anvil needs to be rebuilt from the ground up- but it does badly require pruning - Look at the poor quarter - even with the ones I've marked for removal, each building has 3-5 functional interiors within since these are apartments and flophouses so we're still looking at between 30-50 functional interiors for that area alone.

I'm also proposing we scrap the garden house and expand the Dibella temple complex into that southern area around the gardens instead.

I think this is going to be the easiest way of making Anvil more manageable with the minimum required work. But we have to do something if we ever want to release this biz.

User avatar
Infragris
Project Administrator
Posts: 1385
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:51 pm

Post by Infragris »

I've already removed a fair number of houses compared to the previous version. I'll review your suggestions (especially in the temple quarter), but I think you're removing a bit too much on this map. If we go by this, there would be barely anything left of the poor quarter. Flophouses and apartments do not require separate cells for each family unit: look at the Stirk apartments for comparison.

User avatar
Infragris
Project Administrator
Posts: 1385
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:51 pm

Post by Infragris »

Couple of things:

First: I like the last texture you posted, Saint_Jiub. I think it'll do fine for Anvil.

Second: here's a shot of the platform/docks tileset I've designed for Anvil:
Image

Pretty straightforward, basic set, but with enough versatility to make something interesting. Compare with the Hlaalu docks tileset. Now, for the finer details, we have three options visible on the left: first is to use the GC town docks tileset (the Stirk set) with alt textures. Would look kind of like this:
Image

Other option is to just leave the Stirk dockset alone and do all detailing with the wooden docks tilesets, which might be visually more appealing and lead to less data bloat. Problem: there are also two wooden docks: the common GC one (visible far right, weathered and poor looking) and the Anvil one (visible in the middle, cleaner, but less versatile. Also not sure about the texture). I'm not sure which option would be best.


Also, here are two shots of the new walls I've been working on:
Image
The exterior is more or less unchanged, save for the Imperial crenelation on top which ties it together visually with the castle and navy HQ.

Image
The back is smoothed out, making it look less intrusive and out of place next to the less detailed city assets.

User avatar
worsas
Project Administrator
Posts: 2500
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:23 am

Post by worsas »

Now, for the finer details, we have three options visible on the left: first is to use the GC town docks tileset (the Stirk set) with alt textures. Would look kind of like this:
I like these progress screens very much. Regarding that lighting issue on the walls: See, if you can split the wall from the horizontal strip again to reproduce the clean look from before.

This gets my vote, because solid stone docks in a port like Anvil seem preferable to me over just poor wooden ones. I don't think it's a bad precedent to use special dock tiles for a significant harbor. The wooden docks I would just use for some special locations (poor quarter or at the "boating club" eg.). Just my two cents, however.
and the Anvil one (visible in the middle, cleaner, but less versatile
In my opinion, it would be better to discard that additional variant of the wooden dock and stick with the common gold coast set.

Yeti
Lead Dev
Posts: 535
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:38 pm

Post by Yeti »

In reply to Saint_Jiub's map, I feel it would be a shame to do away with Anvil's crowded urban layout and its atmospheric alleys.

Great work on this, guys. I would have been far too wishy-washy to make these significant, but necessary changes.

User avatar
Infragris
Project Administrator
Posts: 1385
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:51 pm

Post by Infragris »

Question: do we want to completely replace the Stirk dockset with Anvil-textured ones, or make two sets? This would only affect the Stirk harbor. Personally, I think the texture mismatch between Stirk houses and Anvil docks is negligible.

User avatar
worsas
Project Administrator
Posts: 2500
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:23 am

Post by worsas »

do we want to completely replace the Stirk dockset with Anvil-textured ones, or make two sets?
My vote goes to option 1.

User avatar
roerich
Cruel Warlord
Posts: 2035
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 3:10 pm
Location: Denmark

Post by roerich »

Are there any plans for a cargo insurance company? I figure it would be a good diversion from common "Rich Merchant" interiors, and it could play a role in local quests as well. It would be a very wealthy business. Might be connected to a particular wealthy merchant family.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_insurance#History

With piracy on the rise in the Abecean, insurance prices have probably increased a lot lately. It could also be a way to show corruption; if a merchant isn't insuring his cargo, the insurance company might have contacts to pirates that raid that particular ship (too similar to Stirk main quest perhaps). Corruption and bribery in the Legion Navy could also ensure that those merchants who pay insurance are more secure, as navy patrol routes could "coincidentally" align with the merchant ship routes.

User avatar
Infragris
Project Administrator
Posts: 1385
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:51 pm

Post by Infragris »

Right, sorry. I still had to bring some of the file things in line with the latest data update. I'm afraid there's still a lot of work on this claim: the new dockset is only half implemented, lots of changes and updates still need to be smoothed out. I've implemented some of Saint_Jiub's suggestions on houses to remove, and reduced the bulk of some other buildings (a lot of structures consist of two or three house meshes mashed together, which looks kind of moddy). This can be countered in the wealthier parts of the city with larger gardens and property walls. The temple also needs to be re-implemented, and I'm playing with the possibility of removing unused space on the far south end of the city by shortening the city in general and implementing the park in/around the temple.

We should probably re-elect a dedicated head of exteriors if we want to open claims on the north shore, although imho most decision-level stuff could be made by any project lead, similar to how TR does it.

Does anybody object if I keep hold of this claim for a while? I'm afraid I'm in deadline hell atm, but once that clear up there are a couple of things I would like to implement in the city. If anybody else is ready to start working on this right now I'll step aside, of course.

Alternatively, this claim could be cut up into two:
Image

All areas in gray are part of this claim: the area north of Anvil is pretty much finished, and could be lifted from the claim and finished easily. The parts around Anvil and (I think) west of Brina Cross still need a lot of attention.
Attachments
Anvil_1_06.esp
(2.4 MiB) Downloaded 144 times

User avatar
Infragris
Project Administrator
Posts: 1385
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:51 pm

Post by Infragris »

I think Scamp was interested in picking up some exteriors on the northern shore. But we can't open those up until we have at minimum a couple new assets.

User avatar
Scamp
Lesser Daedra
Posts: 465
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:51 pm
Location: Kilkreath Mountains
Contact:

Post by Scamp »

I'm really not sure about claiming anything at the moment. Sorry for the lack of contributions on my part. Whenever I'm not busy with my thesis these days I don't have much motivation or inspiration for modding - and even then, there's still that neglected SHotN claim I'm sitting on.

User avatar
berry
PT Modder
Posts: 670
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:16 pm

Post by berry »

I'd love to lend a hand here when I'm finished with my winter exams in two weeks. :) I've been meaning to do some P:C work for a while now actually, but there's always been something to do at SHotN... By this time we should be wrapping up the Karthwasten release hopefully, though.

I started getting familiar with this area and damn, there's plenty still to do here. What exactly would this claim be about? Fixing shortcomings born from ongoing makeover, finishing said makeover, detailing already started wilderness cell (most notably finishing the highways and tweaking the roads, adding missing vertex painting and some rocks to the seabed)...? Or maybe starting work on further exterior cells...? It's also kind of hard for a stranger to tell what the boundaries of this claim are, due to it's dependency on main landmass file.
But we can't open those up until we have at minimum a couple new assets.
Telling by the list you posted, wouldn't it be easy to sew in these assets afterwards, though, and use placeholder land textures and shrubs for now? At least as far as wilderness cells are considered.

User avatar
Infragris
Project Administrator
Posts: 1385
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:51 pm

Post by Infragris »

I'd rather not use placeholders - half of the work we've had with Stirk is replacing sub-par assets, and data is still plagued with bad models (especially the flora containers).

Most of the work in the claim was/is in redoing and detailing the city center, which also had a lot of bad or limited assets (the former docks, for example). The countrysde north of Anvil needs some detailing, but is mostly ok. The seabed still needs a lot of work to bring it in line with detailing around Stirk.

The right-hand section of greyed-out cells on this map (between Brina Cross and the lakes at Lindasael) is still completely undeveloped as far as I know (though it might be part of the Brina Cross file?)
Image

User avatar
Scamp
Lesser Daedra
Posts: 465
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:51 pm
Location: Kilkreath Mountains
Contact:

Post by Scamp »

The grey cells you're referring to are part of the Brina Cross file, but they're mostly empty. I remember someone might've been working on them as an exterior showcase, but I could be wrong...

User avatar
berry
PT Modder
Posts: 670
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:16 pm

Post by berry »

Alright, as it turned out passing the semester was more demanding than expected (I still have one remaining essay to write), but I think I've got time for some exterior work :) I'm sorry for delay.

If that's fine with you, I figured I could start with Anvil part, rather than grabbing new wilderness cells - not only not to use placeholder meshes or double any possible work simultaneously done in the showcase (griff's?), but also I'd rather wait with developing new cells until I can say I feel the Gold Coast, it's atmosphere and the tileset. The ongoing Anvil redo on the other hand is pretty well documented and planned, so I'm less likely to screw anything, especially if I keep consulting the boards. I'll understand of course if you prefered the city makeover to be done by one of PC modders, but there's plenty else I could help with here in the countryside around Anvil as well - fixing aforementioned highways or (slightly) detailing the seabeds. At any rate I'd like to check the water temperature first, before diving too deep into (Abecean :P ) sea, plus I'm not fully time-flexible as for now yet.

With that in mind, I'm asking for a grant.

User avatar
worsas
Project Administrator
Posts: 2500
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:23 am

Post by worsas »

I wouldn't have a problem with it. But I don't know what infragris is thinking. is the docks-issue still prevalent?

User avatar
Infragris
Project Administrator
Posts: 1385
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:51 pm

Post by Infragris »

Yeah, sure. Just hold on a day or two, so I can document the area a little.

User avatar
berry
PT Modder
Posts: 670
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:16 pm

Post by berry »

Cool :) I'll try to finish that essay in the meantime, so take your time.

User avatar
Infragris
Project Administrator
Posts: 1385
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:51 pm

Post by Infragris »

sorry about the wait, berry, I've been in a special place called hell lately. Do you want to work on the city, or on the wilderness to the north of the city? There's also some underwater tiles and the completely undeveloped part to the east - whoever was working on that probably isn't coming back. If you want the city, I do have to warn you that some of the docks still need to be switched out for better versions, which is a tricky job.

User avatar
berry
PT Modder
Posts: 670
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:16 pm

Post by berry »

Sorry, yes, I'd still like to help. Currently I'm in this lovely mode of "work full time->eat->work on master thesis->sleep & repeat", so I have near naught time to mod. Still, I like having some CS work due to tinker with in free time (hypothetical as for now :P ), but as I can't really guarantee any reasonable progress pace I believe I'd better didn't grab a claim as important as Anvil. I'd like to take some random wilderness cells, ideally, but whatever works for you. :)

User avatar
Infragris
Project Administrator
Posts: 1385
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:51 pm

Post by Infragris »

Yeah, I know the drill. You can basically take your pick from the map: #4 is mostly done, but still lacks some ruins and details. #2 and #3 are fresh, but for #2 you'd need to coordinate with roerich. Also, the Anvil file included here won't work as intended without the upcoming data update, due to missing wall assets.
Attachments
Anvil_1_07.esp
(2.42 MiB) Downloaded 211 times
release area 2-3 - Gold Coast_0.10.jpg

User avatar
roerich
Cruel Warlord
Posts: 2035
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 3:10 pm
Location: Denmark

Post by roerich »

Finishing #2 would give us a nice beach head to launch our assault on Claim Sutch.

User avatar
Infragris
Project Administrator
Posts: 1385
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:51 pm

Post by Infragris »

Although Sutch has to wait for asset dev, and finishing 4 and 3 could lead to an alpha release of the southern coast.

Post Reply

Return to “Completed”