Gold Coast Exterior: GC_01 [chef] [Anvil]

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Infragris
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Post by Infragris »

Remember that the Imperials have their own weird semi-religious drugs. If we need an upper-class narcotic, we can source it there.

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Post by Yeti »

Hey guys. I had to extend my hiatus, but I hope to finally post an update on this over the weekend. I promise not to dissapear again. :oops:

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griff
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Post by griff »

Take your time yeti. Carnt wait for your updated anvil

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Post by Yeti »

So I haven't posted anything yet because my CS won't let me edit terrain using the landscape editing tab. Well, that's not entirely true. Stuff like the flatten vertices and soften vertices work fine, along with the texture and vertex coloring functions. But the basic sculping tool doesn't work - I click and move the mouse but nothing happens inside the edit radius.

I've already tried uninstalling/reinstalling Morrowind on my laptop, but it didn't fix the problem. I will have to try working on this using my family's desktop computer, but that will likely put a damper on my productivity. I tend to use my laptop for everything, because I have to share the desktop with three other people.

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Infragris
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Post by Infragris »

This is bizarre. Have you asked around at TR or House Fliggerty? Maybe someone else once had the same problem and knows how to fix it.

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worsas
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Post by worsas »

There are two things that, in my opinion, are really still lacking in Anvil.

1. Shanty, dirty alleyways with taverns and rats and that kind of stuff. The place you don't want to go to at night. A number of taverns and a bunch of clutter and dirt on the street would help to create the right picture. Anvil should be very different from Stirk as that regards.
2. A place where many armors and weapons are produced. Just a certain concentration of blacksmiths, if there is a suitable forge mesh, maybe add an outside smith aswell?

In general terms, Anvil is too much of a holiday town and too little of a trade harbour in overall character. Though, these two aspects should probably remain about it, with that flowery alley next to the chapel creating a contrast to the dirtier parts of the city.

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Post by Yeti »

Finally had time to work a little on this. Mostly I began sculpting out the harbor area changes, experimenting. I'd like to know what people think before doing more.
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Infragris
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Post by Infragris »

Looks good. I like the way you changed the walls around the graveyard.

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worsas
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Post by worsas »

Hey, nice work so far, Yeti.

A few notes:
- Praedator was provisorically using graveyard walls as property walls in a few places. I made some dedicated pieces of property walls later but he didn't get around to using them yet.
- Most of the fish statics will get auto-replaced with jewelfish ingredients upon the move to the common data files. If you want to have some control over this replacement process, you should probably exchange them by hand.
- The currently used anvil-dibella windows will also get auto-replaced with the more up-to-date verrsions, too. Not sure if they fit into exactly the same space, still.

[hsimg=]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/223 ... lFront.jpg[/hsimg]
I've been thinking about this front here and I feel I need to make the background of these niches a bit cleaner. I'll also upscale the dibella statues (I already put them to 2.0 scale for this screen) and make a second variant for the other niche. And the building needs an appropriate door, surely. Meh.

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Infragris
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Post by Infragris »

Not sure about using the Dibella statues like that: it sort of lessens the impact of walking in and seeing the "main" cult statue on the interior. I've been thinking of making a number of "generic" statues for general outdoor use: maybe those would be better?

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worsas
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Post by worsas »

In that case I'd rather not add a statue to these niches at all. Instead Yeti could put wallfountains in these niches and we could add some kind of hint of a clever pumping mechanism within the interior.

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Post by Yeti »

I've done some more detailing around the harbor. Sorry for the slow progress. There's been a lot for me to do lately.
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Infragris
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Post by Infragris »

Looking over this file again, there are two major edits that would heavily impact the future development of the claim:
  • The wall set: I think there was a cautious consensus that the Anvil walls don't really work like they ought to. One proposal was to replace them with the Stirk set. Regardless of what exactly happens, they will likely be replaced with something which will impact their footprint and the shape of the city. This should be done earlier rather than later.
  • The docks: that one flat block piece is really overused. It is repetitive and doesn't tile very well. I especially don't like the way some houses stand half on the docks and half off them - somehow it doesn't look natural to me. I am currently working on a replacement for the Stirk dock mesh, which I think we might be able to use here as well.
On a more general note, I still think there are slightly too many houses in the city. I know this isn't an easy decision, but I think it is possible to prune off some of houses, like those solitary blocks along the docks or in front of the navy building. The galleon and especially the warship models can be ignored for now, since they will all be replaced sooner or later. Lastly, could you replace the castle meshes with the PC_ex_imp set? I would be interested to see how it looks in this setting.

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worsas
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Post by worsas »

With all of these changes requiring models we don't have in data yet, I wonder what can be properly worked on at all at this point.

I'm still uncertain about replacing the walls. They are surely a bad precedent, but still more fitting than the stirk walls, in my opinion. Wouldn't it make more sense to avoid this error for future settlements rather than going back and clearing out past objects? Will it really make such a difference?

Regarding the docks, however, I agree wholeheartedly.

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Infragris
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Post by Infragris »

There's just something about those wall models that doesn't feel right. Maybe it's their material settings? They look different from the models around them, in the CS at least. But you're probably right, it would be a hassle to completely replace them.

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worsas
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Post by worsas »

They have lower ambient color settings than the other models, but it can be fixed.

There are a few of opposing thoughts I have on the walls:
- Apart from the ambient settings, the walls play visually well with the contents of the city. Looking at it, at least in the cs, it all feels harmonious together and I'm actually really digging the feeling of it all.
- The walls are integrated into the design of the city that much that replacing them with anything but models of the same format and dimensions will require remaking much of the city.
- On the other hand, apart from the decorative arch stuff on the wall sides and the ground texture atop the battlements there is very little about these walls making them similar/consistent with other imperial fortifications like the legion fortresses or the imperial ruins of previous eras. That is really the biggest gripe I have about them at this point. Also the city gates would probably rather be arched than square.

It's giving me a slight headache. I feel that something could be done to integrate these walls with other imperial fortress designs, but then again we are somehow stuck in an endless chain of overhauls and I'd rather re-align ourselves to more substantial matters. The interior people are pretty much waiting on this city to be finished. Finishing the stirk docks and using them around here is something I'd like to see, but the walls... maybe let's leave those alone for the time being.

Err, Idk. I feel tempted to do something with the walls, but it would be a sign of inner strength and straightness to leave my fingers from them and to look into alternate ways of integrating them into the overall picture.

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Post by Scamp »

Leon wrote:If the layout of Anvil is done, meaning if all the houses are set in stone, maybe I can unlock those interiors?
I mean, if only detailing the city needs to be done than waiting would be a waste of time. :roll:
As far as I can tell, there's a lot more to be done than just detailing. If the walls are to be ditched, major parts of the city might have to be changed entirely, and I'd rather not see finished interiors in that case.

Anyway, Infragris already made his statement that there's too many houses, still. I can't look at the file right now. He's probably right.

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Post by Moritius »

Looks like wall materials are standard blender mats. After changing them to be standard building materials they looks slightly different (bright light off/on).
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Infragris
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Post by Infragris »

Considering the arguments made here, it would be for the best to leave the walls as they are. As such, structural problems would only occur on the waterfront/docks area, and the western districts of the city could potentially be unlocked for interiors. Key locations like the temple, fortress, navy school, etc. are unlikely to change, so work on them could start immediately (though this would ultimately be Yeti's call).

Interiors outside the city walls should also be good to go. There are plans to revamp the Gold Road with the new Imperial highway assets, which ideally would include one or two orchards or farms, but this would only add interior locations, and should not impact existing ones.

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Post by Yeti »

A few points:

- Largely, I think the walls look fine. I would argue to keep their shape, size, and design largely the same. If their textures or ambient settings can be tweaked to make them blend in better with the rest of the city, however, I would be all for it.
- I have not finished removing all the exterior buildings I eventually want to. In my next update, I will prioritize making those changes so we can determine how many more buildings would need to go.
- I'm fine with work on interiors starting, as long as everyone agrees that the shape and window placement of the buildings being interiorized is good to go.

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Post by Saint_Jiub »

Looking at it further, I largely agree with Yeti - I do really like the Anvil walls in their current form. Maybe we do just chalk up Stirk as a learning experience and move on to one wallset per region moving forward.

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Infragris
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Post by Infragris »

That's fine. If you find the time, could you maybe experiment with the stirk docks in Anvil harbor? I'd like to see if they fit well enough.

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Post by Yeti »

Update with a number of buildings removed. Thoughts? If I tore down a building with a vital function, it can be shifted to a nearby existing building with a less important one.
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Infragris
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Post by Infragris »

The silk weavers guild? That's not essential - it's just a warehouse, not a real guildhall. I really like that open square you've created, gives a lot more variety to the cityscape. I would remove one of the PC_Ex_Anv_Building_03 blocks between the square and the warship docks, so people can navigate the place a little easier. Also, could you put the statue of Bendu Olo in the center of the square? I think it would look perfect there.

Other than that, I think we'll see how it looks once the PC_Ex_Anv_plat_01 pieces are replaced with the new docks set. That will radically change the look of the waterfront.

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Post by Yeti »

I'm slowly beginning to work on this again, after being pulled away from modding by other work. Mostly, I've been adding rocks around the coast today. Nothing really worth uploading yet, but I'll post a file soon.

Are we still in agreement about removing the wall between the Poor Quarter and the rest of the city

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Infragris
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Post by Infragris »

I'm in favor of removing the wall, but see if you can make it work first. If removing the walls causes too many complications, it might be best to leave them as is.

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Post by Yeti »

Looking at the wall again, I'm a bit skeptical about the proposed removal. I'm not sure it would provide us with a large enough improvement to warrant the trouble.

Here's a new file. The island with the lighthouse is coming along nicely, I'd say.

When do we expect the PC_Ex_Anv_plat_01 pieces to be replaced in data? I'm curious to see what their replacements will look like.
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Infragris
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Post by Infragris »

The plat pieces aren't getting their own replacement, they should be removed (almost) entirely and replaced with the new Stirk/GC docks tileset, which is already in data.

Idea: could you replace the Imperial Navy building with a building made of Imperial fort pieces? I would echo the castle on the other side of the bay, give the place more visual unity. Also, it would make sense that Legion affairs only happen in Legion buildings, like the Temple in Morrowind.

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Post by Yeti »

Hey guys. Sorry I haven't been around. I hope to have another update soon. Probably nothing major, but it will be something.

Your proposal for the Navy building sounds interesting, Infragris. I'll see what I can do.

As for the nearby forts, I imagine I'm correct to assume one is meant to be ruined and the other is active?

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Infragris
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Post by Infragris »

There's a speculative design map here that should have all southern Gold Coast locations in their right place (please notify if anything is missing). In my opinion, both forts should be ruined, making Fort Strand the only active Legion garrison in the region (to avoid complications with Legion quest and faction design), not counting smaller outpost like watchtowers or the lighthouse. Couple of things:
  • Could you remove one of these forts and replace it with the Old Imperial Ruin tileset? Currently, we have no ruins of this type anywhere in the release area, because the set was not yet finished during exterior work. Since these forts are unfinished, we don't lose a lot of work on them.
  • The lighthouse at -51, -124 uses the Seyda Neen lighthouse model. I think this looks rather out of place: this building should remain unique to Seyda Neen, or at least only be used in derelict environments. The data merge should give you access to all kinds of new building meshes from TR, which can be used to make an Imperial-style lighthouse (flag them here if they are not using the Gold Coast Imperial textures, and we'll convert them).
  • Don't forget to implement the Stirk dock set along the Anvil waterfront, to get rid of those square blocks.
  • The Imperial Highway from Anvil to Brina Cross (indicated in yellow on the map) should be furnished (and textured?) with the Highway tileset that worsas made. Make sure to use the appropriate Gold Road milestones (they are color-coded). These unique road pieces are needed for the player to orient themselves in our rather large landscape.
  • I think we should remove the large "warship" models entirely, and replace them with the smaller galleons. It will make the harbor look busier and larger if there are six ships anchored instead of three. Also, we won't have to spend a lot of time and effort updating these atrocious models, which cannot be used anywhere else on the map.

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