I'M MAD! (But in a Good Way)

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DJGamer
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I'M MAD! (But in a Good Way)

Post by DJGamer » Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:29 pm

First things first, I'd like to apologize for accidentally-double posting in the main forums on the topic of paid Skyrim mods. Whoever's in charge of the approval process should just send my second post through since it's a little more thought-out than the first, and besides I didn't notice the message about it needing to be approved. I'm sorry, I should've just figured that to be the case but I'm a moron sometimes. And crazy, but that goes without sayin', doesn't it? You guys should probably get on the task of making sure my posts don't need moderator approval if that's possible, though. Also, get me back my emoticon, the main one at least-at this point I could only use the nyan cat one ironically, and while I am most certainly mad, I'm no hipster, at least not until my hips start telling me otherwise.

In any case, I'm curious as to what's happening with Sutch. Has it been dropped from the project altogether? I hope it's not because of my "kinda sorta departure". I have been considering ways to adapted those ideas to work in my Legends of Torian setting but they were designed for this project and it is fairly difficult. I'd also hate to yank my ideas away from you guys if you're still planning on using them.

I have to get ready for work now, so anything else I'd like to say will have to wait. Good luck with the project and all that.

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roerich
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Post by roerich » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:40 pm

There's a lot of talk about it on the old P:C forums. :-)

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Infragris
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Post by Infragris » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:05 pm

At the moment, we're prioritizing the release of Stirk, preliminary work on Anvil, and world design on a larger scale: faction conflicts, storylines and concepts, the nature of Imperial culture as a whole. Sutch is definitely still in, but it is somewhat lower priority. Also, most discussion/information on it hasn't been moved from the old forums yet. There's kind of a backlog on those design threads, but I'd prefer to process all the available information in one place rather than copy-pasting a dozen different topics.

I'd be interested to hear which parts of the design you'd like to pursue in your own work? With this kind of project, things usually change somewhat or get implemented in a different fashion from the original concept: it'd be silly if you would deny yourself your own ideas if they end up looking quite different in the released project.

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Post by DJGamer » Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:51 pm

I've actually been thinking of implementing elements of the Kali Mes hierarchy into a race called the Nekofei (Cat Elves). I may be using the names, most of them are a combination of Swahili an Afrikaans with a few modifications-I think the only thing I can think of off-hand which is actually Redguard language (I can't remember the name, only that it starts with a "Y") is the "Ra" in Ra-Jumbei. It's only half of the term and it's like two letters so I'm pretty sure even Bethesda's overzealous legal team wouldn't go after me for something so obscure. lol

Basically, I'm thinking of adapting it from a Mafia-type group to something more tribal, and it actually fits pretty well. It's kinda felt a bit weird to me having this criminal organization with such an organized democratic system with checks and balances. Of course, that's kinda what makes it so cool and if you see some of the things I'm doing with the Legends of Torian setting (legendsoftorian.com -shameless plug) I'm all about doing strange and unusual things and playing around with expectations. I'm also considering the possibility of having it be both-like a criminal organization which derives its structure in part from tribal traditions. I'd probably have to rethink some of the other elements though since the criminal organization that is a key element to part of a story I'm working on needs to have more of a rank system to it.
Basically, I didn't have the Kali Mes in mind when I developed that story but the organization itself is presently unnamed and undefined. The thing that's part of the story is a character's father having been assassinated so that another member of the organization could progress in rank-although there are other reasons as well.

Basically I'm in the process of toying around with what I could use and should Legends of Torian end up being as successful as I hope it will (I like to dream big) there could end up being all sorts of weird complications if both it and Province: Cyrodiil are using a variation of the same ideas. That said, it'll probably be awhile before you do anything with Sutch and if I end up making anything out of the Kali Mes in Torian you guys will be the first to know. It may even be as simple as just changing some of the names for one or the other. Ideally all the things I'd need to change to make it work within the framework of a different setting will add up to make it different enough-or at least not have one make the other feel redundant.

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Infragris
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Post by Infragris » Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:51 pm

While I can't speak for everyone here, I think it's fine if you want to use the Afrikaaner names for your project. It's a clever and intriguing concept, but perhaps not one that meshes perfectly with Redguard culture: even frontier Redguard, I feel, would be way too proud to let go of the pure usage of their own language. We also have some excellent sources on Yoku language which are criminally underused.

The idea of a criminal organization with a fair and balanced internal system is way too good to let go, but it is something that could be executed in a myriad of ways. Even coming from the same source, it would be quite surprising if we ended up doing a comparably similar thing. In the case of the Kali Mes, I was thinking we could insert some extra influences from old Yokudan swordfighting schools, put a heavier emphasis on the interplay with large merchant houses and weird Redguard religions, that kind of thing: this should make them more of their own thing, and distinguish them from the Renrijra Krin (our other criminal freedom-fighter faction).

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Post by DJGamer » Fri May 01, 2015 3:19 pm

An idea I recently considered that could potentially be applied to Sutch could be having the territorial issue somehow have arisen from the Dragon Break. The idea actually occurred to me while I was considering ways to integrate it into Torian.

Torian has a slightly similar event in its history related to the war against Chaos, whose goal was to return the world to its original state as a mess of free-roaming elemental energies. It was an all-out war between the Gods themselves which subsequently tore apart the threads of reality. Among the causalities were a good chunk of living memory and history and a number of instances of seeming discontinuity regarding what history and such could be recovered. I'm not sure if I'm actually going to use this as a plot point for the Torian Kali Mes, in fact I really doubt it but I figured I'd just share.

I may make a thread in the general general forums at some point, but what I really probably should do is get to posting more stuff on my own official Torian forums.

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Post by Infragris » Sat May 02, 2015 1:12 am

I don't much like using the Dragon Break as an excuse plot in these kinds of mundane situations - and I say that as someone who really likes the idea behind the Dragon breaks. Thing is, the Sutch conflict can be explained perfectly with low-key politics - I've plotted the likely timeline in this topic here. I do think we should refer to the Dragon Break elsewhere, especially with quests associated with the Order of Akatosh in Kvatch: we can actually put the timey-wimey stuff front and center there.

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Post by SamirA » Mon May 04, 2015 11:07 pm

I pretty much agree with everything Infragris has said to this point.

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Post by DJGamer » Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:48 pm

Wow, I've just been reading the book that came with the collector's edition of ESO. Not sure if this has already been discussed but apparently they've retconned the whole "Cyrodiiil is a Jungle" thing as an "error in transcription". At least they acknowledge it-I can't help though but wonder if this is changing your plans for making Cyrodiil more jungle-like.
The Improved Emperor's Guide to Tamriel wrote:Much has been made of Heimskr's classical description of Cyrodiil as a jungle or rainforest. My studies indicate that the use of the phrase "endless jungle" to describe Cyrodiil appears to be an error in transcription. Close study of the original, badly faded manuscript reveals that the phrase was miscopied, and should be more accurately rendered as "extensive uplands." The adjectives "an equatorial rain" as applied to the Nibenese forest do not appear in the original manuscript at all, and I would posit were added by the scribe in support of his previous erroneous usage of "jungle." Lady Cinnabar of Taneth, of course, takes issue with this exegesis, but the flaws in her methods of scholarship have been well-documented elsewhere.
Also, I updated my avatar. It now features ESO Sheogorath along with a character based on myself: Jocien Hearthon.

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Infragris
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Post by Infragris » Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:50 pm

This shouldn't effect our plans at all. For ESO and (to a lesser extent) Skyrim, we take a strictly opportunistic approach: use what we like, and ignore what doesn't fit. Since the mod we're making is an extension of Morrowind, we should at all times try to stay in line with that game's descriptions and portrayal of the world of Tamriel - which means a heavily jungled Cyrodiil, according to dialogue and the PGE I.

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Post by DJGamer » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:17 pm

https://twitter.com/TESOnline/status/265849694708719616" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So basically, it seems that the whole thing with Cyrodiil being a jungle is just a giant series of "Dragon Breaks". From what I've gathered they actually incorporated some of the "From The Many-Headed Talos" into Skyrim.

At this point I can only assume this results from the fact that most people point to The Emperor's Guide 1st Edition as their primary source of lore regarding Cyrodiil's state as a jungle. As a result, all other sources of information in games following Redguard are ignored entirely. So the first retcon ignored that Morrowind made reference to Cyrodiil being a jungle, so that retcon makes no sense-then ESO ignored that Skyrim added that retcon into the official cannon-making the new retcon a retcon of a retcon-by Sheogorath it's RETCONCEPTION!!

I suppose at the end of the day it can all be explained away with Dragon Breaks and looking at Nirn as a multi-layered reality. Morrowind exists in a reality where this thing has not been twice-over retconned.

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