Tristior interior showcase

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Tristior
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Tristior interior showcase

Post by Tristior » Sat May 13, 2017 5:04 pm

Hi! Here's a first-draft interior showcase for Province: Cyrodiil. I've spent so long lurking on these forums, getting increasingly inspired by the image of Cyrodiil that's being built, that I'd quite like to stand up and do my part. The interior is for a Caldera house (cell name "Caldera Mansion", I think) and I'd note that the chandelier clipping on the first floor was an aesthetic choice, as was the muck/goblet on the upstairs table. Any other clipping is wrong. Admittedly, I am completely new to using the CS, so they are quite possibly some glaring omissions in addition to small mistakes, but if you can set me straight then I'm willing to learn.

Thanks!
Tristior
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worsas
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Re: Tristior interior showcase

Post by worsas » Sun May 14, 2017 11:24 am

Hello Tristior and welcome aboard!

On your showcase:
Did you put all of the shell pieces of the house together by yourself or did you copy the house shell from somewhere else? The pieces don't seem to be gridsnap-aligned, which they would be, if you had pieced them together with gridsnap. Or did you piece them together with gridsnap first and then moved the whole shell to a different location?

In any case, it is a necessity that you create everything within your showcase from scratch, otherwise we won't know, if you have the abilties needed to create interiors. We have a tutorial for interior cells that covers some of these topics, if you are interested:
viewtopic.php?f=141&t=95

Overall, the design of the interior looks good and there is already some nice detailling. In the upper story there are numerous pieces of furniture that may only be used within real dunmer interiors (hlaalu, redoran, telvanni, etc) and that you will have to replace with something else:

active_de_pr_bed_08
Furn_De_R_Bookshelf_02
de_p_closet_02_elegnan
furn_de_p_table_04
furn_de_p_chair_02

You can recognize dunmer furniture by the abbreviation "de" (dark elf), whereas common imperial furniture usually uses the abbreviation "com". However, there are a few exceptions like the de-rugs which you also use in imperial houses.

- At the staircase there is a pillar (in_c_pillar_wood) with a caspering supporting strut. Move this pillar further into the wall, so that strut disappears.
- When you replace the table at the upper story, make sure to press F once to make sure it rests properly on the ground.
- The book on the small table next to the bed is bleeding into the silver candlestick.

These are the biggest points I noticed. Fix these things and we'll see from there on. Other members here might have additional input.

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Tristior
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Re: Tristior interior showcase

Post by Tristior » Sun May 14, 2017 1:45 pm

Thank you for such a quick reply! And I appreciate you sharing the tutorial - things would have been much simpler if I'd found that earlier. I'm making a number of those changes, but before I post my revision I wanted to ask a couple of things -

Firstly, the house is very much my work from scratch, and I definitely used gridsnap to piece it all together. What do you mean when you say it's not "gridsnap-aligned"? I did, early on, realise I'd placed the back wall too close, and shifted it one snap backwards (which is why at least one pillar was out of place, as well) but I haven't moved the shell as a whole. There's also the possibility that I *placed* the original piece without gridsnap on, which might account for that? I don't know.

I've changed the "de_" bed, closet and chairs to something more "com_", but I've for now kept the furn_de_p_table_04 in the corner because the showcase guidelines ask for a "de_p" surface for rotation demonstration. It's also the best example I found of a rough workbench rather than a fancy desk or table. How strict is Project Tamriel about mixing cultural assets like that? A big no-no?

On the same note, the bookshelf - I can't find an Imperial bookshelf that actually FITS books on it. Furn_De_R_Bookshelf_02 only works because it doesn't have a top for them to bleed through. Should I be scaling the books? I've been clicking around different cells trying to find a working in-game example, but haven't yet succeeded. Will keep looking.

Lastly, I can't see the bleeding between the book and candlestick on the bedside table. Is there a reason we'd be seeing different things?

Thanks again, and I will post my revision ASAP.

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Re: Tristior interior showcase

Post by worsas » Sun May 14, 2017 2:09 pm

What do you mean when you say it's not "gridsnap-aligned"?
With the file above, when I move a single tile with gridsnap enabled, I cannot make it snap back to its old location. This would be an indication that the tiles are not aligned with the grid. I don't know. On the other hand, if you say, you made the shell from scratch, I'll believe you.
How strict is Project Tamriel about mixing cultural assets like that? A big no-no?
It's a big no-no except for special cases that are agreed upon with one another. In 99% of the interiors you should strictly stick to the valid range of objects for the respective interior type. There is, however, some ambiguity, especially with reach-redguard interiors at SHOTN, where both nord and imperial assets are used interchangeably.

For P:C house interiors you will stick with the exactly same set of objects you are using here in your showcase + additional com/imp assets within Tamriel_Data. De-pieces are a no-go indeed.

Generally, it is a good idea to look at the example interior cells in Tamriel_Data to get an idea of the design direction of an interior type. Additionally, it is helpful to check interiors made by other members previously.

To showcase your rotation skills, you merely need to put some objects on a deliberately chosen uneven surface (pillow? edge of the rug? basket?) and rotate them so they are resting properly on it, preferably along all three rotation axes.
Lastly, I can't see the bleeding between the book and candlestick on the bedside table. Is there a reason we'd be seeing different things?
See screenshot below:
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Tristior
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Re: Tristior interior showcase

Post by Tristior » Sun May 14, 2017 3:10 pm

Okay, here's the revision. No "de_" objects, and the bedside book has been moved. I've also added several objects to both spruce up the place and showcase rotation.

The book/candle discrepancy is, I suspect, from mods (my book is smaller and purple) and so I have just done a clean reinstall. The gridsnap thing, I... have no idea. All I can do is reiterate that it's built from scratch - as you say, what would be the point in showcasing someone else's work?
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Re: Tristior interior showcase

Post by Luxray » Sun May 14, 2017 3:22 pm

Everything has lined up gridsnap relative to each other. You must have moved the whole shell + northmarker to another point in the interior.

Interiors that don't have water as a feature of the interior should have the option to include water unchecked in the interior settings.
<roerich> woah it's hot in here
<Lord Berandas> it must be Summer.
<Infragris> #hell is meant as a spam and off topic channel. Doing a great job already

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Tristior
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Re: Tristior interior showcase

Post by Tristior » Sun May 14, 2017 4:00 pm

I must have. Is there a way I can realign it? Also, damnit, I did move the shell just before I re-uploaded to see whether it would snap back into the grid - if the cellar doesn't have a shallow pool of water then it must have jumped up on the Z-axis without my realising. That's on me for not checking.

Slightly bigger problem, and it kills me to be such a hassle, but since just doing that reinstall of Morrowind (and the CS) I'm now unable to access my .esp at all despite cleaning it continually - I get stuck in a cycle of error messages about missing dialogue ("following string is different for topic"). Can anyone suggest what's gone wrong/how I can restore functionality, or do I just scrap and start again? The clean reinstall means I'm only running Morrowind, Bloodmoon and Tribunal .esms and no plugins, rather than MGSO and Tamriel Rebuilt.

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Re: Tristior interior showcase

Post by Luxray » Sun May 14, 2017 4:16 pm

It is not so much of a problem if the shell is finished but when moving multiple items offset to the gridsnap grid at once using gridsnap, it will stay on the offset. So best in future not to move shells around after creation. It makes altering them annoying as you'd have to resnap every individual piece of the shell.

To solve your issues with the dialogue please add the line "AllowYesToAll=1" under your [General] tab in Morrowind.ini. It should look something like this
Image

Then on loading the CS press 'Cancel' on the first instance.
<roerich> woah it's hot in here
<Lord Berandas> it must be Summer.
<Infragris> #hell is meant as a spam and off topic channel. Doing a great job already

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Re: Tristior interior showcase

Post by worsas » Sun May 14, 2017 4:19 pm

I get stuck in a cycle of error messages about missing dialogue ("following string is different for topic").
As a first timer this must look like everything is broken. In fact those are harmless error messages everyone gets with bloodmoon installed. just keep pressing enter or use that cancel = yes to all - option luxray posted about.

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Re: Tristior interior showcase

Post by Tristior » Sun May 14, 2017 4:33 pm

You bloody rippers! Everything is restored, all is well. The water appears to be at the intended level as well. I'm ready for any other changes/tweaks you've noticed (as well as any general world-building advice - this fellow appears to only have one spoon, for instance).

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Re: Tristior interior showcase

Post by worsas » Sun May 14, 2017 6:35 pm

The mixed usage of redware and silverware kitchenware seems rather unusual. Either you use completely silverware or you use just silverware cutlery and a cheaper metal plate. Or just the cheap metal plate with default cutlery. Perhaps look at some examples in caldera. There is sometimes some fidelty in finding a fitting combination. Sometimes it's even almost entirely subjective.

Maybe add some clutter to the window niches in the upper story and some more clutter to the cellar. A corner tile in the staircase leading to the cellar is currently ill-positioned. Care to fix it too? It would also help to add some more of those empty glass bottles, in particular to the wineracks in the cellar. Cupboards should always be attached to the wall. Generally avoid doing extravagant things, unless you have a context that requires it.

Other than that I wouldn't have much more expectations on you for promotion. Though it would be good, if at least one other person would give a look and say what he thinks.

Most people on Tamriel will not have dwemer study objects in their home. In this showcase it's fine, but these very special features should be saved for special characters always, that will also have quest-relevance.

Did the owner of this house die in his/her cellar?

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Tristior
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Re: Tristior interior showcase

Post by Tristior » Mon May 15, 2017 11:55 am

The (extravagant) head-canon I had in mind for the place was an alcoholic Imperial archaeologist, who begrudgingly had to work with local lowlifes to acquire Dwemer artifacts. The inferior crockery and furniture around the dining table is a demonstration of his contempt for them, and maybe that bit him in the arse when he went to fetch some more brandy from the cellar. Now, obviously that's an overly specific story half-told, and I realise that believably mundane spaces are an important part of building an immersive world - none of the above reflects a belief that every single P:C interior must be a shitty detective story. It was just me playing around for my first proper interior, and I'm now a lot wiser about mixing styles and so on.

I'll add the bottles, fix the corner tile and cupboards, and find some clutter as you suggested. I'll hold off resubmitting in case there's any feedback from others. Thanks again for the support.

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Re: Tristior interior showcase

Post by worsas » Mon May 15, 2017 8:02 pm

Hello Tristior,

I was speaking to luxray on discord (you are anytime welcome to join us there, btw.) and he said, he didn't have any input beyond what I wrote in my last post. So you can move ahead and do the last fixes and afterwards, if there are no serious issues left, we'll promote you. :)

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Re: Tristior interior showcase

Post by Tristior » Tue May 16, 2017 3:53 pm

Here 'tis! Cheers, guys.

PS. I've found the Morrowind Modding Community on Discord - not sure if that's right one. So much to learn!
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Re: Tristior interior showcase

Post by Trey303 » Tue May 16, 2017 4:19 pm

One thing I notice (most likely because of the body upstairs) is that when I go near the table on the top floor, I get a journal update saying "I found Anes Vendu's body." It will be very important to ensure you never use items that can cause quest updates accidentally like this in any interior. While I like what you were trying to do with the water in the basement, I believe there is a big issue with the fact that while inside the house you can hear what sounds like the ocean no matter where you are. I believe there is a way to place false water (I've seen it in Stirk bathtubs) but I'm not sure how to do this. Having the water level in the house though seems to have audio problems, just for future reference. The last thing is the dwemer puzzle box, used for the main questline. It certainly wouldn't be very good to have this in any real interior.

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Re: Tristior interior showcase

Post by worsas » Tue May 16, 2017 4:30 pm

It's looking fine to me so far. The only thing you didn't address was the cupboard (com_cupboard_01_booze) and the mixed redware- and silverware dishes on the table, although the latter are probably fine on a second thought. The cupboard definitely should be attached to the wall and be put to a higher position.

Overall though, it's looking faithful and alright and probably nothing conspicious to a usual player. Overall you seem to understand what you are doing. The issues that Trey brought up are something to keep in mind in future. Other than that you are alright to go, so let's have you promoted, right?

And this is the link to our discord channel: https://discordapp.com/invite/T6978xn

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Re: Tristior interior showcase

Post by Trey303 » Tue May 16, 2017 4:38 pm

Welcome to the team Tristior! :D

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