Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Interested in joining? Show off your skills here
User avatar
berry
PT Modder
Posts: 653
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:16 pm

Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by berry » Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:06 pm

Good day everyone. :) Hope I am doing this right, as I can't see any other showcase topics on the new boards. If not - please move/edit this topic.

I'm berry, I'm 23 and I am from Poland. I have been devoted Morrowind player for like ten years now, I guess, I tried my hands at modding too, and as health reasons forced me to take gap year at my university, I realised it may be a good opportunity to try helping you guys in rebuilding Tamriel. I like to work in CS, I have lots of spare time and I am a big fan of province mods, hence - why not?

I have been working on this showcase file for a better part of December. I have actually completed it by the end of the year, but I wanted to wait for the organisational changes to take place. I intended to post this at old SHotN forums, but now I would like to apply to other province projects as well.

I cleaned the plugin with EE, TESAME and Wrye Mash, but it is dependent on Polish master files (main, Tribunal and Bloodmoon), as I don't possess English copy of the game. I truly hope that is not a problem.

Regarding the showcase itself - it covers two remote valleys placed somewhere in high Velothi Mountains. The area is rich in hot springs, that eventually managed to melt part bigger part of surrounding glacier. Power of theirs steam was harnessed by ancient Dwemers, it is as well being used nowadays by productive Hlaalu nobles, helping them with running muck plantation on this heated ground. This little plantation is the only sign of civilization in this territory. The other one, small nordic hamlet, was overwhelmed years ago by some wicked forces. Despite it's eerie atmosphere two rogues (smugglers, runaway slaves?) chose the ruins for their encampment. Maybe they were allured by the big number of dwemer ruins in the area? The rumour says that dwarven brilliance still preserves them - and their treasures as well - from ice and ill conditions.

Showcase covers following cells:
Berry's showcase, -21, 28
Berry's showcase, -21, 29
Berry's showcase, -21, 30
Berry's showcase, -22, 28
Berry's showcase, -22,29
Berry's showcase, -22, 30
Berry's int - interior showcase, accessible from exteriors as well.

So, that's it, I guess. Please, forgive me my faulty English (I am not applying for quest modder, after all :P ), I rarely use it, so it may be a little rusty.

I look forward to hearing your feedback. :)

Regards,

Berry
Attachments
Berry's showcase.ESP
(389.23 KiB) Downloaded 115 times

User avatar
Luxray
Cat Herder
Posts: 437
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:11 pm
Location: The deep, dark depths of the Reach.

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by Luxray » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:41 pm

Hello and welcome! You are the first showcase here, as you say because of the organisational changes.

Had a cursory look through the file, looks very interesting, though I can't do exteriors so I shall refrain from reviewing it properly.

I am sure someone will be along in due course -- in the mean time feel free to start posting or join us on the IRC -- would be glad to say hi!
<roerich> woah it's hot in here
<Lord Berandas> it must be Summer.
<Infragris> #hell is meant as a spam and off topic channel. Doing a great job already

User avatar
worsas
Project Administrator
Posts: 1887
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:23 am

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by worsas » Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:29 pm

Hey Berry,

we are right now in the situation that we only have one modder that could possibly give your exterior cells a proper review, but that modder (he's called Scamp) has been lacking time lately. He might come here and review your showcase, though. But, the way things are standing you might already be one of the better exterior modders on this board.

I have looked at your file and was rather impressed by the amount of detail and the variety. Apart from the fact that you clearly have the abilities needed to participate, I can say that you still need to look at some of the smaller objects placed on tables. In the interior cell some of the dwemer objects are not resting on the surface. You can select those objects and press 'f' to make the object "fall" down. Usually those floating objects are not an issue, but if you are using mge with an SSAO shader you will actually notice that they are floating. Therefore we always check on those things and make sure that there are not floating or intersecting objects in our finished work.

Right now I'm not sure on some of your ice chunks stinging out of the ground. Sometimes you will want to add a bit less stuff to a hill to give it a more harmonic overall picture. But it's really not wrong. It is an icy glacier after all. Also, lovely work on the ice cave mixed with the dwemer ruin.

It is good to see that you have been making good use of the available space. In a few spots it might be a tad cramped, but it's overall a nice piece of work. We currently have the opposite issue at Skyrim that space in our exterior cells tends to be heavily underused. Due to this, we are currently discussing an overhaul of our current exterior space. In the end, we should end up somewhere between where we are now and what can be seen in your showcase. The Reach is supposed to retain a vast and expansive feeling. so these larger hills and the lower density of locations is something we intend to keep, but it should be tweaked to give a better sense of the actual scale. It would be cool, if you could help us to implement this change.

I hope one of the other people will still find time to give your a more thorough review. In case we cannot review your exterior file, we might be going to just review the interior cells and welcome you as exterior modder regardless.

User avatar
Scamp
P:C Council Member
Posts: 328
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:51 pm
Location: Druadach Highlands
Contact:

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by Scamp » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:20 pm

Hey yo,

do not despair! I may not always have time for stuff, but I remember being thoroughly frustrated about the lack of reviews on my TR showcase back in the day. (Thinking about it now, I just couldn't wait to get started. I bumped my thread way too soon)

First off: This has some really nice ideas, little things that impressed me, like those details in the village ruins or the little exterior cavern serving as a connection between two stylistically different areas. I love the cavern roots cracking open the stone floor in one spot. You are on the right track with these little gems!

However, looking at the whole picture, a lot of things don't make sense or should generally be avoided, if I may say so. I'll just list everything I noticed.

1)
Image

I don't know man, I've never seen mountains that go like this. It just seems as if you were trying to create something to have a cool bridge and a huge waterfall nearby. These things sure are neat, but if they go too out-of-context and if shapes are just really over-the-top-unnatural, people won't believe in what you have created. If there was any RL reference to this that will prove me wrong, I'll be glad to take this back. You can leave this in your showcase file, but when working on actual claims for any project I'd rather see some realistic mountain scales.

2)
I see you used the unscripted colony activators. Good catch!

3)
Why is there so much snow left in just a couple of areas, while there's literally no snow at all all around?
Image
I know snow doesn't always melt in regular patterns, but it seems to me like you should've included some more bits of snow here and there to make the (necessary, since there is no version without snow on top) intact building blend better with its surroundings.

4)
Image

Eh. I don't really like flora bled into rocks like that; it doesn't look good. Plus, you can see through the bottom of the rock here (we call that "caspering", in case you aren't familiar with the terminology yet).

5)
Image

This looks odd. Showing destruction and chaos is a very powerful way to create dynamic exteriors, but in this case, I wouldn't say it makes a lot of sense. If you meant to show a couple of partially burrowed planks, you'll need to accept that Morrowind can't show this in a convenient way without making it look too abrupt to be reasonable.

6)
Image

So where does this pile of rubble come from? The bricks don't fit the house ruin, and the castle ruin's too far off.

7)
Image

Ew. What colour is that shading? That needs to go. Always stick to grey or maybe green or brown tones. No neon-red or cyan-blue or anything weird like that.

8)
Image

Waterfalls are cool... but they don't quite work like this. While it looks acceptable in the CS, you will be horrified in-game. Each activator piece has its own animation, and you need to separate the meshes through rocks and such to avoid the "flat plane with animation on top" look at all costs when there's a lot of the same waterfall activators right next to one another. Use small rocks (especially in places where the water starts falling over the edge) and split up the waterfall into smaller streams that come back together at the bottom of your mountain:

ImageImage

9)
Image

You got plenty of rocks at the side of this hill, why not on top? I know vanilla exterior had this frequently, but at least the absence of rocks was somewhat consistent. Plus, that ice shard sticking out of the hill looks a tad odd... probably just my opinion, I'd be fine if you left it there.

10)
Image

Do these really grow here? There're usually seen around the Azura Coast or the West Gash Region. I think quite a few experienced players would be surprised to see them here.

11)
Image

This is a texture seam. It usually comes up if there's three or more different textures right next to each other... it should be avoided that these are actually visible to the player. You may cover them with rocks, though I'd refrain from using plants to cover these spots. It's usually hard to do with the irregular mesh layouts and will likely cause you to try to cover a seam with multiple trees or plants arranged in a rather linear way, which'll probably look more stupid than the actual seam.

12)
Image

I don't know about mixing this texture with the rock texture directly, too much of a contrast. Consider making a transitional area using a snow/rock texture.

13)
Classical floaters:

Image

14)
HOLY BALLS style-mixing. Generally, every region has its own objects tied to it. We should refrain from using any rocks or flora from other region types. For instance, I should not mix flora_bc_tree_10 with terrain_ashland_rock_05 unless I'm making a transition from the Bitter Coast to the Ashlands, which is rather unlikely to happen in a direct way.

Let me show you what you mixed here:
  • in_mold_rock_ with Terrain_rock_BM_. A really bad-looking combination, if you ask me. Iirc, mold style was used round the Ascadian Isles or Molag Amur, but not in the Velothi mountains. If you want to use a cave set in this exterior, stick to in_BM_cave_ (or the ice cave set as you have done in the appropriate bits).
  • Ex_S_Smith_Shed right next to a small Hlaalu settlement. Again, very odd combination. Cavern planks looked ok with the colony stuff though!
    • Ash and farm textures from other regions. Really stick to BM textures, farming doesn't make a whole lot of sense up in the mountains, anyway.
    • flora_tree_ac_ with Solstheim trees. The latter trees are perfectly fine here, but _ac_ stands for Azura's Coast, very inappropriate. Same goes for the parasols.
    • You're lucky that scathecraw is actually part of Tamriel Rebuilt's concept for the Velothi mountains, however, I'm unsure about having lava vents in the middle of your farm.
    • Probably shouldn't be using Flora_grass_. Use Flora_BM_grass_ instead.
    • Never seen flora_bush_01 in the Velothi mountains. You'd see such flora around the Thirr river or in the Ascadian Isles.
    14)
    Image

    I'm unsure about this thing. It doesn't look right in this place, but then again, I can't quite put my finger on what exactly is wrong.


    Well, so much for the (constructive) criticism... Now let's see what you got right:
    • Best roads I've seen in a first showcase. Excellent.
    • Almost no rugged terrain/terrain spikes. Usually the biggest problem in showcases, I was relieved by the absence of such issues.
    • Absolutely fantastic amount of creativity. The exterior caves are splendid and create an interesting bit of diversion. The dwemer ruin is beyond beautiful.
    • The small details, like the skeleton in the ruined village and (as I'm sure I mentioned already) the cave roots coming through the floor of that ruined fort piece. Very intriguing way of combining entirely different statics. Keep it up!
You mostly need to sort out these style-mixings, man. Other than that, there's a lot of great stuff to be seen here!
Image

User avatar
roerich
Project Administrator
Posts: 1415
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 3:10 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by roerich » Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:21 pm

Welcome along! Your showcase looks interesting based on the screenshots in this thread, though I haven't looked at it myself. It looks like that if you listen to Scamp and take meticulous notes, you're well on your way. Your english is just fine, by the way.

User avatar
berry
PT Modder
Posts: 653
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:16 pm

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by berry » Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:15 pm

Wow, thank you all for warm welcome and your really kind words, I am flattered :) I have tweaked the file according to your suggestions.

List of changes:
  • I got rid of all major "model inconsistencies" - rebuilt slave barrack using only Hlaalu and colony pieces (I figured that were I dunmer noble on inhospitale, nord infested land, I wouldn't hestitate from "borrowing" materials and furniture from nearby nedic ruins; dunno, just seems dunmerish for me, that's why they stay); switched de_docks and unfitting imperial rubbles in village ruins to colony models, also improved ruins look here and there; replaced most cases of Morrowind/Tribunal grass/bushes with Solstheim flora;
  • got rid of most cases of Morrowind terrain textures; only AI's tilled dirt and clover stayed, as for now
  • repainted weird cyan vertex shading. It was supposed to serve the glacer-ish look of the terrain, but yeah, it didn't look that great
  • showed more love to the hills atop Vekh's shrine and the ones by the other side of the road
  • fixed all the floaters I was able to find; I had no idea it is so hard to get the dwemer cogs lie still on the dwemer set furniture :P I would appreciate if any of you could take a look at them now, as I am sure they blend into table mesh right now. I hope it's a less of an issue
  • changed dunmer "Danger" signpost to something more modest
  • replaced Azura's Coast trees and emperor parasols with Bloodmoon flora. I left muckpods and shelf fungi intact, their presence makes as much sense as muckspunges' presence, I think
__
roerich wrote:Your english is just fine, by the way.
Thank you, that's a relief too. On the other hand... I try to write well and it is refreshing to heard I do, but you wouldn't believe how long it takes me to write every single post :D that's why I will refrain from joining you from IRC, at least for the time being :P
Scamp wrote:I don't know man, I've never seen mountains that go like this. It just seems as if you were trying to create something to have a cool bridge and a huge waterfall nearby. These things sure are neat, but if they go too out-of-context and if shapes are just really over-the-top-unnatural, people won't believe in what you have created. If there was any RL reference to this that will prove me wrong, I'll be glad to take this back. You can leave this in your showcase file, but when working on actual claims for any project I'd rather see some realistic mountain scales.
Yup, you are right. I don't think there are canyons like that, I just thought to myself "massive waterfall!" and wanted to try my hands at the concept :P the other thing is the waterfall itself looks quite unnatural as you notice, I will have to take a look at your usage of waterfall meshes and take some notes. And just don't try to create anything that epic in a while. :D
Scamp wrote:Why is there so much snow left in just a couple of areas, while there's literally no snow at all all around? I know snow doesn't always melt in regular patterns, but it seems to me like you should've included some more bits of snow here and there to make the (necessary, since there is no version without snow on top) intact building blend better with its surroundings.
Got rid of the snow on the rocks, I think it looks decent now. I hope the building doesnt seem of right now, too? It seems good to me. By the way, what is team's outlook on using colony set? It may fit in northern Cyrodill region and in Skyrim, but I think it was supposed to be quite unique thing?
Scamp wrote:Do these really grow here? There're usually seen around the Azura Coast or the West Gash Region. I think quite a few experienced players would be surprised to see them here.
Yeah, it took me like a week to come up with Morrowind agriculture flora that wouldn't look off in this area, and I've finally decided to go with muckspunges. Now I realize the idea of dark elf plantation in high, cold mountains wasn't that fortunate itself :P well, I would be wiser in the future and not so careless with my modding concepts.
Scamp wrote:in_mold_rock_ with Terrain_rock_BM_. A really bad-looking combination, if you ask me. Iirc, mold style was used round the Ascadian Isles or Molag Amur, but not in the Velothi mountains. If you want to use a cave set in this exterior, stick to in_BM_cave_ (or the ice cave set as you have done in the appropriate bits).
I just imagined it to be fertile mud from local hotsprings, but yeah, it may sound a little far fetched.

As for now, I haven't touched the muckspunges and in_mold_rock models. I am really reluctant to replace the latter ones, particulary, it would be a hell of a work. But if that is required then sure, I will get to it as soon as I can :)

Thank you for your review, Scamp, and once again - thank you all for your feedback and nice words :) really appreciated.

Looking forward to hearing your opinions and future outlines.

berry
Attachments
Berry's showcase v2.ESP
(391.31 KiB) Downloaded 90 times
Last edited by berry on Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Scamp
P:C Council Member
Posts: 328
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:51 pm
Location: Druadach Highlands
Contact:

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by Scamp » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:03 pm

You don't need to replace the in_mold stuff and the muckspunges, the fact that you have acknowledged what I told you about those is perfectly sufficient here.

I'm glad you didn't take this giant list the wrong way. I'll take a look at the new file tomorrow, if you don't mind.
Image

User avatar
berry
PT Modder
Posts: 653
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:16 pm

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by berry » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:26 pm

Thank you. And of course, take your time, I can wait. In fact I am having an operation this Friday, so I will be gone from the boards for few days and can get back to modding on Monday at earliest, I think.

User avatar
Scamp
P:C Council Member
Posts: 328
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:51 pm
Location: Druadach Highlands
Contact:

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by Scamp » Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:52 pm

Yo, this is pretty damn good now. I'll add you to the modder group.

Promoted for exterior modding YAY


Just a few more comments, alright? Something for you to still keep in mind while making claims.

1)
Image

These waterfalls could need some more work here.

Image

Here, too. It's sort of odd how the water magically disappears in the mesh and then re-appears somewhere else.


Now, you're going to have to watch out for objects making no physical sense when stuck in other objects. We simply call these instances bleeding. It's alright for soft items like pillows or sacks to be somewhat sunk into the surface and such, and for most flora it's fine if leaves overlap with other leaves. Bleeding architecture pieces in rocks doesn't make sense, but generally looks pretty cool, so it's allowed.

Usually, these bleeders will be fixed during review, so you shouldn't worry about the ones in your file now (you don't need to upload a new version of your file anymore now, btw). However, it's generally a good idea to to reduce it to a minimum early along, so that it will be easier for the reviewer to get through the reviewing process.


2)
Image

Would this really grow here? It's on a rock. Plus, it's bleeding.

3)
Image

Another example of a bleeder. There's also shading missing beneath these objects.

4)
Image

A bleeding tree.

5)
Image

Moar!

6)
Image

Berry's in stone? We'd rather not want to see that.


Now, since I previously mentioned another one of our favourite terms, here's a couple more casperers:

7)
Image

Watch out for these snow drops, they can be quite annoying casperers at times.

8)
Image

Two in one picture! What a catch.


That's all now. Like I said, you don't need to fix these, it's just a few more hints and tips to get you all set up.

Good luck with that operation.
Image

User avatar
Luxray
Cat Herder
Posts: 437
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:11 pm
Location: The deep, dark depths of the Reach.

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by Luxray » Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:43 pm

Congratulations! (Convalesce soon, eh)

We should get some ext claims put up sooner rather than later then, hm?
<roerich> woah it's hot in here
<Lord Berandas> it must be Summer.
<Infragris> #hell is meant as a spam and off topic channel. Doing a great job already

User avatar
berry
PT Modder
Posts: 653
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:16 pm

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by berry » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:06 pm

Thanks for promotion :D damn, I've got a real problem with bleeders. Good to know, I will be cautious :)

The operation went fine, thank you for your concern, Scamp & Luxray. I'm still feeling quite woozy, but I am back at home and recovering slowly. I believe I am able to begin working on the Project.
Luxray wrote:We should get some ext claims put up sooner rather than later then, hm?
I don't mean to rush anybody, I am just eager to get started. So even withouth the claims ready, if there is any exterior work to be done I'd love to help, just let me know.

User avatar
Lord Berandas
PT Modder
Posts: 127
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 6:57 pm
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Contact:

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by Lord Berandas » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:59 pm

Hey berry, good that the operation went okay and congrats on the promotion. It's great to see some new face in the team. :-)

User avatar
worsas
Project Administrator
Posts: 1887
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:23 am

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by worsas » Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:24 pm

We are just getting our exterior tasks wrapped up these days. If you haven't done so yet, you could go to our internal forum and download the data files and the landmass file and have a look around.

User avatar
SamirA
P:C Council Member
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:53 pm

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by SamirA » Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:38 am

May be some exts at PC right now, not sure. Also has anyone looked at the interior in this file?

User avatar
berry
PT Modder
Posts: 653
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:16 pm

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by berry » Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:54 pm

Thanks, Lord Berandas :)
worsas wrote:We are just getting our exterior tasks wrapped up these days. If you haven't done so yet, you could go to our internal forum and download the data files and the landmass file and have a look around.
SamirA wrote:May be some exts at PC right now, not sure.
Hey, that's good to know! In the meantime, until the claims are ready, I downloaded data files and landamasses and took few walks around the Rift. It looks amazing, I loved new architecture, terrain, creatures, I can't wait now to try my hands at these new tilesets.

I was wondering, is there similar file for PC like the one posted by Scamp? It would be helpfull in getting the overview of how the regions look like.
Samira wrote:Also has anyone looked at the interior in this file?
Worsas earlier in the thread pointed out the floaters and I fixed them (I hope) in v.2 file of the showcase, but apart from that there has been no review as for as I know.

User avatar
Scamp
P:C Council Member
Posts: 328
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:51 pm
Location: Druadach Highlands
Contact:

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by Scamp » Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:38 am

berry wrote: I was wondering, is there similar file for PC like the one posted by Scamp? It would be helpfull in getting the overview of how the regions look like.
It's not on these forums yet. Since you don't have permission to view it on the old forums you'll have to wait until I open these related threads where you'll be able to download our progress.
Image

User avatar
berry
PT Modder
Posts: 653
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:16 pm

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by berry » Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:02 am

It's not on these forums yet. Since you don't have permission to view it on the old forums you'll have to wait until I open these related threads where you'll be able to download our progress.
Sounds fine to me, especially given the SHotN claim I've just accepted.

~~ posting queries about the claim here from now on ~~

Thanks for fast response, Scamp.
Scamp wrote:2. Like I said, I'd prefer if you found some way to still have the grass in place. You can generate it (again, you may refer to my grass tutorial...) (or I can generate it for you) afterwards, but you'll have to handle the bleeders, it's very time-consuming and really looks bad if not handled at all.
I believe I can do it, I just fear such big quantity of refs will be quite RAM demanding. But I think I will add more dirt textures to the place, so I will remove lots of grass on the way, and my PC should endure.
Scamp wrote:In fact, you can put any texture you want, even ashland textures.
:D but no lava vents this time, I swear ;)

I took a look, played with area in CS and wandered around in game and I think I have a plan. Hosting it in image form, I hope it sounds fine. If so, I'll get started later today.

edit: yes, I'm aware that "mesa" closest to Karthwasten is actually a valley; just realized it after creating that artistic scheme of mine :P
Attachments
plan2.jpg

User avatar
Scamp
P:C Council Member
Posts: 328
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:51 pm
Location: Druadach Highlands
Contact:

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by Scamp » Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:04 pm

You have a new thread in the claim section now, berry. Let's continue our dicussion there.
Image

User avatar
Yeti
SHotN Jarl
Posts: 443
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:38 pm

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by Yeti » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:29 am

I'll have to read the Showcase section more often. Congratulations on your promotion, Berry. I look forward to seeing more of your work.

User avatar
berry
PT Modder
Posts: 653
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:16 pm

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by berry » Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:19 pm

Thank you, Yeti. :)

User avatar
berry
PT Modder
Posts: 653
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:16 pm

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by berry » Mon May 16, 2016 2:22 pm

I know I'm a nasty little spammer recently, I just have a lot of time on my hands this week. :)

Here's a still incomplete planning pdf for what I thought could be my questing showcase. It's a story about unfortunate shipmaster from far Gold Coast that I thought could work as a beginning of player's experience with Province: Cyrodiil. A reward for helping this captain would be unlimited free passages to Stirk.

Say, would it be of any value to the project? If so, what adjustments/assumptions I'd have to make? If that's not really needed then no problem, I haven't put that much work into it yet, and I'd just grab one of Yeti's unclaimed quests for a showcase. I could also try and provide just a script for fast travel to Stirk, if we don't want a quest here.

These two Imperial names used here are placeholders, of course. :P
Attachments
berry_quest_showcase_planning.rar
(70.19 KiB) Downloaded 50 times

User avatar
Infragris
Project Administrator
Posts: 1161
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:51 pm

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by Infragris » Mon May 16, 2016 6:27 pm

I've had a quick look over this. It is well written, and you obviously have the technical competence to work quests and dialogue. However, I don't think we can implement this quest: one important guideline for the project is to minimize impact on the vanilla game in any way possible, in order to avoid conflicts. As such, we should not add a questline that takes place on Vvardenfell. Current plans for the fast travel connection are very lightweight by contrast.

A couple of other criticisms:
  • In the long run, the player will technically be able to walk across the TR or Shotn landmass to reach Cyrodiil from the east. As such, we should nuance the importance that we ascribe to Stirk in dialogue and quest design.
  • Your characters are somewhat long-winded, especially the captain. NPC dialogue should keep the character limit in mind, and if possible avoid too dense text blocks. Personally, I think three "continue" commands is too much except in special cases.
  • Player responses and choices should be kept fairly neutral: something like " Never, you almost got me fatally bored already. Spare me, please!" is too specific (not to mention unwarranted based on the interaction up till that point). Player characters can be very varied in terms of their class, race, and their imagined background. Player choices, even forceful ones, should be fairly open-ended to allow a level of interpretation.
  • Also, I notice that giving this response permanently locks the player out of the questline, thus denying them the chance of visiting Stirk. That would not be ideal considering the scope of the mod.
  • The quest is too limited in terms of player challenge and (inter)action. You listen to someone, walk to a place, walk somewhere else, and pay someone a lot of money. There are no alternate ways to complete the quest, save for some minor adjustments of the exact sum to be paid. I would also argue that this means there is no way to "win" the quest, because the player gets ripped off no matter what he does. Why not an option to blackmail or threaten the clerk?
  • At no point does the captain actually promise a reward. This again limits the scope of the kind of characters that would do the quest, and makes it unlikely that someone would front the bill for him. It also trivializes the reward somewhat.
  • Lastly, this quest would limit the people traveling to Stirk to those who have a couple thousand drakes to spare. Ideally, new characters should be able to get off the ship in Seyda Neen and make their way to Stirk almost instantly: we don't want to force people to redo old vanilla content for a few hours just to collect the required funds.

User avatar
roerich
Project Administrator
Posts: 1415
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 3:10 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by roerich » Tue May 17, 2016 9:23 am

I agree with Infragris on his points, but this is looking really promising!

I take it you'd have no problems implementing a few SHotN quests either?

User avatar
berry
PT Modder
Posts: 653
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:16 pm

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by berry » Tue May 17, 2016 12:15 pm

Thanks for feedback! These are good points. Some of them I realised myself after writing this (that it would be a bad idea to close the questline for a player) but I have to admit I haven't considered most of them. :) Damn, quest designing is a comprehensive task! I think I'd rather stick to the quests planned by other people, for now.
roerich wrote:I take it you'd have no problems implementing a few SHotN quests either?
Well, in theory... I know how quests work, and I really like fiddling with scripts/simple dialogues, but I've never made a quest before. We'll have to see. :P

User avatar
berry
PT Modder
Posts: 653
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:16 pm

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by berry » Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:17 pm

roerich wrote:I take it you'd have no problems implementing a few SHotN quests either?
As it turned out, I wouldn't. :P

Gentlemen, here goes a finished quest for my showcase attempt, and the first finished quest we could use in upcoming SHotN release, I hope. It tells the story of Wilbur (well, I've been playing Book of Unwritten Tales recently :roll: :P ), a Nord commoner known formerly as a "chicken hermit". He lives in this house between Scamp's grotto and my Forsworn village; I used a finished interior for his house made by griff and reviewed by Luxray.

I tried to follow the characteristics of Aldkarth and Druadach regions we've been braining out this last year or so, and included some flavour dialogue lines too. I think the reward for this quest is rather balanced, and would come in handy exploring our release area, but it won't be hard to better balance this quest - just changing the stats for the enemies/reward.

To get there use:
coe -108, 6
or
coc "The Reach, Wilbur's house"

Please use this file alongside my most recent Sky_merged_claim_20.esp and all should work well, I hope.

I cleaned the file with TESAME and TES3cmd.

Let me know what you think about it!
Attachments
Clean Sky_berry_quest_chicks.ESP
(53.5 KiB) Downloaded 61 times

User avatar
worsas
Project Administrator
Posts: 1887
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:23 am

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by worsas » Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:49 pm

Funny quest. I loved everything I have managed to see of it.

Only problem being: After the troll hole appeared, i went into the house, spoke with the chicken herder about the trolls and saved. Then I went into the cave and got killed by the trolls. After reloading the savegame the cave entrance was covered again.

User avatar
berry
PT Modder
Posts: 653
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:16 pm

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by berry » Sun Jun 05, 2016 3:15 pm

worsas wrote:Funny quest. I loved everything I have managed to see of it.

Only problem being: After the troll hole appeared, i went into the house, spoke with the chicken herder about the trolls and saved. Then I went into the cave and got killed by the trolls. After reloading the savegame the cave entrance was covered again.
Thanks! That's a crap about this bug though, it happened to me too now that I checked it, but only if the quicksave was in different cell than the rock is (i.e. Wilbur's house in this case). That's weird, I thought that moved objects stay in their places, unless you use DontSaveObject function? I can script-in a possibilty to move the boulder on your own, once you have seen the first troll, but maybe there's an easier way to fix this? Leon?

And yeah, these trolls are tough guys, and to think that I made them like 4 times weaker than our normal troll entry. :) Makes me wonder do we really need to have our creatures as strong as vanilla bosses

User avatar
worsas
Project Administrator
Posts: 1887
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:23 am

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by worsas » Sun Jun 05, 2016 3:49 pm

Makes me wonder do we really need to have our creatures as strong as vanilla bosses
Right. They are already a bit weaker than the udyrfrykte, but not weak enough for sure.

User avatar
berry
PT Modder
Posts: 653
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:16 pm

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by berry » Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:58 pm

Alright, I eventually took care of this error by adding a "debug" script lines to the local script located in Wilbur's house, that updates the journal about Wilbur's death:

Code: Select all

Begin Sky_berry_wilburstatechecker

short rockdebug

if ( GetJournalIndex SKY_misc_chickenQ < 10 ) ;quest not even mentioned, so pc is some kind of a wicked murderer but who are we to judge?
	return
endif

if ( GetJournalIndex SKY_misc_chickenQ > 49 ) ;quest finished properly, or this event triggered already
	return
endif

if ( _Sky_aldk_chickenhermit->GetHealth < 1 ) ;wilbur is dead
	Journal SKY_misc_chickenQ 100 ;i killed wilbur oh no
endif

if ( GetJournalIndex SKY_misc_chickenQ > 29 ) ;we know about trolls
	set rockdebug to 1
endif

if ( rockdebug == 1 )
	if ( "_Sky_chickenmenace_rock"->GetPos, Y != 55621.96 ) ;rock returned to its place
		"_Sky_chickenmenace_rock"->SetPos, Y, 55621.96 ;makes the passage open again
	endif
endif

end Sky_berry_wilburstatechecker
So now after the triggered event, but before finishing this quest, the passage gets open again whenever PC visits Wilbur's house. I think it's quite fun that way, actually - like the trolls are trying to protect their household, that's why the passage is closed sometimes. :)

User avatar
berry
PT Modder
Posts: 653
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:16 pm

Re: Berry's interior and exterior showcase

Post by berry » Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:33 pm

So unless anyone opposes against this quest really bad (because it violates chickens'/trolls' rights to live, or something :P ), could it maybe get a claim in the reviewing section? I could upload the corrected file there.

If that's fine with everyone, I'd also like to grab on right away roerich's horse quest, and worsas' one, with treacherous manhunters. I'd like to see some more wilderness quests done, so the forest doesn't feel that empty, before I step on to Yeti's city quests, and these two are pretty solid concepts, that would be an interesting experience to implement. :)

Post Reply

Return to “Modder Showcase”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest