Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
most of these gods will have knight orders too
and I think the consense is that the orders compete and arent very unified in HR. IE the pantheon doesnt have much unity.
yeah feel free to fire off some ideas for the pantheon. I'd stay away from Trinimac cuz I think Thomas was working on that but the rest have very little developement for HR
one thing I'd keep in mind is since there have been so many ruling/coexisting factions in HR/Illiac Bay that there are probably going to be multiple inspirations for the same god JUST inside of the HR.
so like Bretonian might dislike Y'ffre but Easterners love them, the orsimer will have a very different idea of Trinimac than the Altmer on Baelfiera (I think we talked about the Direnni trying to use this to influence Orsinium potentially), Akatosh AND Auri-El will exist in the same pantheon (... I think)
so theres alot of stuff to work out and not alot set up
Saint_Jiub - 12-10-2017
Yeah it's definitely something that should be played around with but it sounds good so far. There would be a lot of unseen tension between different cultural norms in Breton society just due to how many times they've been conquered and "civilized" by various empires - Auri-El and Akatosh existing within the same pantheon is a great example of this.
And I'm sure the Bretons would sit there and tell you with a straight face how "Auriel ent Akatosh"
TBH I think this is probably what Bethesda was trying to do in Skyrim but they failed pretty spectacularly because culturally, it wasn't a good fit for the fiercely independent and stubborn Nords
Drakevarg - 12-10-2017
What would you even call the Breton pantheon? Given that they seem to acknowledge the Divines, the Daedra, nature gods, and all manner of esoteric weirdness in equal measure, would they count them as multiple equally valid pantheons, or do they sit Dibella and Hircine at the same table and think nothing weird of that?
Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
I might be talking for the whole group, but I feel like the implication was that the divine side of the pantheon are more popular in the cities, where imperial influences are strong and cultures blend (Some of them were supporters of the Alessians ideas for instance like Wayrest) but when you get to the country side villages you start seeing that mixing of divines, daedra, spirits and folk heroes. It would probably be accurate to say that outside of the cities there is no Breton pantheon, but there are pantheons for each individual village
Saint_Jiub - 12-10-2017
I think it depends on who you ask most likely, like Miraclestone said, mainstream Imperial culture is going to be more popular in the Iliac because there's no money in being branded a cultist or extremist. Just a guess, but for the most part I suspect that once you get out into High Rock proper, most Bretons would simply consider beings like Hircine and Dibella to be faeries (faedra?) of varying levels of power and influence, and worship them accordingly.
At some point I'd like to reexamine The Faerie and try to relate it to the subgradient model of life on Nirn
Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
In TES2, there was ALOT of evidence for the Daggerfall royal family being super into witchcraft but publicly they denounce it
that seems to set a presidence that alot of the more culty/extremist practices are widespread/rooted in the cities but also taboo/unsavory to be public knowledge
like, everyone knows everyone is into that stuff but they pretend they arent so they fit in with the Imperials and Redguards
Drakevarg - 12-10-2017
I was under the impression that the idea was that everyone is into the full "divine trail mix," but urban culture considers it in poor taste to acknowledge the darker stuff in public, where the neighbors can see it.
Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
^ I think thats what I mean
Daggerfall royal family denounces witches not because they really fear being associated with them but because they need to make the public image that they know well enough not to admit and be brazen about it
Drakevarg - 12-10-2017
They all worship it, but like... in back rooms, basements, sewers, that sort of thing.
Saint_Jiub - 12-10-2017
Yeah basically. Although as with any culture you'd have true believers too who just fully buy into the propaganda and think that the squeaky clean life of a gods-fearing paladin is the only way to live
Drakevarg - 12-10-2017
I imagine rich people go as far as to have their witchy shrines tucked away in hidden passages, the sort servants use so the rich don't need to see them.
Saint_Jiub - 12-10-2017
The various temples and covens are pretty much singularly focused, as well as the knightly orders and warriors that guard them
But yeah once you get out into the general population it's a pretty wild mix
Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
Anticlere and Wayrest would likely be full of true believers, theres alot of talk about the Order of the Flame and the Benevolence of Mara being borderline religious zealots.
Drakevarg - 12-10-2017
That follows. Even in pantheonic religions I think people who are like... professionally religious tend to revere one specific subject while merely broadly acknowledging the rest.
Saint_Jiub - 12-10-2017
"Mara represents love and peace. She and Her Benevolence recognize that, as hypocritical as it sounds, military strength is often needed to beget this peace. The Maran Knights represent this military strength. We are admittedly a controversial knightly order."
Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
and Wayrest is like a little Tamriel inside of High Rock so it is likely to have alot of true believers from around Tamriel
Saint_Jiub - 12-10-2017
Drakevarg - 12-10-2017
The Extremely Apologetic Knights of Mara.
"Please behave. As devotees of peace it would be really awkward if we had to beat you all to death for not being peaceful."
Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
@Saint_Jiub I was more talking about the the Anticlere knights descriptions for TES2 all make it clear how important Mara is in Anticlere nobility (it seems)
Most of the orders though would be run by true believes, would be interesting to have one of the orders be a complete sham maybe
Saint_Jiub - 12-10-2017
Do you have sources by any chance? I'm not super familiar with the town knightly orders tbh
Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
Like the Kynerath order is run by corrupt occultists who just pretend to worship her or something
1sec
Saint_Jiub - 12-10-2017
Yeah that'd make for a fun questline if you have to expose and/or replace them
Could be like the High Rock equivalent of the Great House stronghold quests
Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
"Lord Quistley is a Breton noble from Anticlere and serves as adviser to Lady Doryanna Flyte. He is also an associate of the Benevolence of Mara."
thats actually all I could find on UESP
maybe there might be more in the daggerfall chronicles
but prehaps I misremebered how many mentioned Mara connection
"Regional Knightly Order Knights of the Flame
Patron Deity Mara
Regional Temple Benevolence of Mara"
I'm not sure if Kynerath would be the best choice, just an example
Saint_Jiub - 12-10-2017
Nah I knew what you meant.
Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
I think RZero had a good idea about the Kynerath order (working with the Hafingar nords in Jehanna potentially) trying to dominate and replace Y'ffre worship in the Reach as the 'right' way to worship nature
a good way to push the angle that these orders arent getting along and that the religious forces in HR are always in flux due to no unified sense of faith
Saint_Jiub - 12-10-2017
Like I mentioned when we were talking about druids, Breton culture is defined by ambition and how ruthless you're willing to become in order to be king of your particular hill. The religious orders would definitely be part of that as well.
Even if they don't necessarily compete for the same niche in society, they're gonna compete for resources and followers.
Even within the Divines, I don't think a priestess of Dibella would have any qualms about sabotaging a ritual at the Temple of Stendarr if it meant more followers and prestige for their own temple.
Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
I think the idea of the Nords and Imperials trying to push their more unified, orthodox, structured faiths on the Bretons (and failing) would be interesting. Like the more conservative sects of Akatosh worship for instance might get Imperial funding
Nords might be trying to get Kyn worship going in the West Reach. Would be interesting to see these organizations pour alot of time and money into an impossible effort of 'fixing' Bretons of their unorthodox worship
but I agree, priest/priestess in Breton orders wouldnt be noble and fair, they would be cunny, ruthless and calculating even if they were true believers
Saint_Jiub - 12-10-2017
k_hand:
Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
Not to mention the blatant hypocrisy that should be rampant in fake believers in the orders. "As a priest of Zenithar I will tell you there i no better feeling than earning your place with hard work. You dont need your coin to feel full of Zenithar's blessing, it will only burden you further in your tasks. Thats why you should give it all to me!"
roerich - 12-10-2017
I agree that Breton religion should be more centered around a particular divine rather than a whole pack of them
Saint_Jiub - 12-10-2017
http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/150378 ... aggerfall/
Bethesda Softworks Forums
Varieties of Faith in the Empire: Daggerfall - TES Community Creations
Varieties of Faith in the Empire: Daggerfall - posted in TES Community Creations: Spoiler Just a little scribblecrap that came to be in the process of my working on Daggerfall and the Bretic West for one of the RPs around here, Of Princes and Power. Thought Id post it up in case it might prove of wider interest. Dont judge too harshly Varieties of Faith in the Empire Volume 12: the Bretons of Daggerfall by Penbrother Filaxes Arvernus of the Scrivial Orders Staunc...
An interesting take on the subject
Melchior Dahrk - 12-10-2017
Better save that page.
Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
@roerich what do you mean, Im not sure we are talking about the same thing.
roerich - 12-10-2017
That Bretons in general are more inclined to follow a particular divine rather than a whole pantheon. Of course worshipping and acknowledging the whole pantheon, but directing their worship towards a single deity.
Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
ok yeah i guess we are than
roerich - 12-10-2017
Rather than how it's shown with the Imperial Cult in Morrowind, where you have people worshipping the Nine rather than worshipping Akatosh.
Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
Breton individuals and cultures tend to focus on 1 diety in the urban areas instead of the whole lot
roerich - 12-10-2017
And you will always have "Temple of Yffre" or "Temple of Hans the Fox" rather than "Temple of the Gods"
To put it roughly
Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
In TES2 the orders seemed rather segmented (though this is mostly due to the fact Bethesda didnt really think of the nine as one pantheon but rather unconnected individuals)
so it would make sense for them to be disjointed
Infragris - 12-10-2017
I should note that for Cyrod we are also focusing much more on the cults of discrete Divines instead of the overarching Imperial Cult
although Imperials as a rule still worship the pantheon, so this shouldn't be a problem
And the interpretation of each Divine in Breton culture will be very different from the Imperial one, I imagine
Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
Would you consider them competing though or more just the cult styles of say 'Rome' for instance in how they handled their pantheon
yeah we were talking about how we could change the interpretations for the Bretons 10ish hours ago
Infragris - 12-10-2017
The Roman model, as far as I understand it, is the one we're likely to follow: the cults do not compete, and they are conjoined by their ties to the Empire
members of each of the Great Faiths often intermingle, and provide services for each other
and they all pitch in to sponsor the Imperial Cult, which provides missionaries for the provinces, and the Imperial Seminary, which is kind of a theological and administrative overhead
How this will translate in-game is still very unsure though: making them nine discrete factions VS one Imperial Cult faction with a lot of dialogue exceptions both have their advantages
Will these religious temples be joinable in some way in HR?
Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
So yeah your model would be more of a collective on a province/governing level but communities often have individual cults to certain members of the pantheon which is accepted as an artifact of Ayleid culture
Infragris - 12-10-2017
uh, not Ayleid culture
the diversity of cults was a relic of the marukhati way of doing things, ironically
Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
I thought the Ayleids were super into cults and that was one of the things the Alessians inherited from them after the rebellion
you'd know though
Infragris - 12-10-2017
Not really, there is very little known about Ayleid religiosity apart from the fact that they worshiped both their Ancestors/Aedra and the Daedra
A certain permissiveness towards Daedra worship in Imperial culture can be attributed to them
But their most influential aspect is that the elven-inspired deities were mixed with the Nordic pantheon by Alessia to create her syncretic pantheon of the Eight/Nine Divines
Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
I guess it makes sense that the Alessians would develop cults on their own, easier to worship in private/secret leading up to the rebellion maybe
Infragris - 12-10-2017
Some of the early Nedic tribes held on to their own forms of religiosity, but most adopted the religion of their masters, actually. This was what caused the early tensions with the Nordic believers
Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
anyways, I think we got to the point I was trying to make that the main difference between the cults of Cyrodiil and High Rock is the ones in High Rock compete
Infragris - 12-10-2017
The PGE 1 explains it better that I can
That's a very good angle for High Rock
most other aedric pantheons seem to be pretty harmonious, and it fits well with the Breton's propensity to factionalize
btw, a good (if WIP) text about Ayleid religion is this one by Anumaril:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=849
Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
One of the things I wanted to explore as far as religions are concerned is the whole Sheor/Shor stuff. In the vanilla canon pantheon, Sheor is mentioned as the bad man in the breton pantheon. We have 3 planned meta cultures for the Bretons (Bretonians, Easterners and Normen) I was thinking we could split the difference between the 3 to show the mixed nature of the bretons and there origins religiously. The Normen being isolated, closest in blood to the Nedes with the least elven influence while also trading with the nords the most throughout the years would be bigger fans of Shor. The Bretonians being on the Illiac would be mixed in Sheor, Shor and Talos worship but in majority dont really care one way or the other. And the Easterners are believes in Sheor and hate Shor, being mostly in the Reach and being under the control of the Direnni the longest (also boarder frictions with Skyrim would lead to some hate)