Map Discussion

Any province related discussion not fitting into other categories
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ThomasRuz
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Map Discussion

Post by ThomasRuz » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:42 pm

Map made by Miraclestone
Image
Map by Zinitrad
Image
Also this one
Image
Last edited by ThomasRuz on Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Ted
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Re: Illiac Bay Concepts

Post by Ted » Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:05 pm

Nice map! But I more like that one that Biboran made somewhere here (or on TR forums, don't remember) because of form of high rock province that more like follow that map of Tamriel of who TR and PT bace their work.

Also, is HR project still alive?

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Re: Illiac Bay Concepts

Post by ThomasRuz » Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:02 pm

Do you mean this one by chance?
Image
I would say the HR project is currently slumbering. It is alive, but there is not a lot of activity.

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Re: Illiac Bay Concepts

Post by Ted » Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:32 pm

Yess, this. Actually third one you add on your post before is close to that. But his map actually in original scale, it impoossible to fit all this stuff in tes3.

Actually I bad at painting maps but I tried to combine this maps in something that you can use
Image

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Re: Illiac Bay Concepts

Post by ThomasRuz » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:57 pm

Ok, thanks!

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Re: Map Discussion

Post by ThomasRuz » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:53 pm

Conceptual Map of High Rock(Towns and Cities), which I made with Atrayonis' Gridmap

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Re: Map Discussion

Post by Ted » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:18 pm

Looks like too many villages in some places... maybe instead glenumbra make tulune city?

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Re: Map Discussion

Post by roerich » Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:42 am

Looking good. Immediate thoughts:

Some names and sizes could be discussed. I.e. "Blackhead" is a terrible town name (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=blackhead), even if used in earlier games. I wouldn't mind it being called just Balfiera or something-Direnni. Other names are too high fantasy, like "Raven Spring" or "White Haven" and should be dedefecated. Good HR names are Dunlain, Camlorn, Evermore, Glenumbra, Farrun, Jehenna and of course Wayrest and the so-cheesy-its-cool Daggerfall. Most of the rest of the names should probably go through a similar process to the one that turned Amber Guard into Karthgad and Granite Hall to Beorinhal.

Number of villages could also be discussed, as Ted pointed out. Half of the smaller villages should be 5-7 interiors tops. A lot of the villages located close together (i.e. around Daggerfall) should probably just be dispersed as a heavily settled farmland, with many small farms and a few minor villages.

Markwasten should be renamed or burned to the ground, as it's the most horrendous result of the name generator, with Karthwasten and Markarth located just across the border.

Jehenna should probably be 3 cells tops and Farrun 2. Town names including 'Karth' should be scrapped, as the Karth river is far from here.

There should be a number of Bjoulsae camps/tribal villages along the river banks.

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Re: Map Discussion

Post by ThomasRuz » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:46 am

Yeah, this should be discussed. I made the map more for looking at the placement and "crowdedness" of the province, the area around the great bay is also quite empty. As for Jehenna and Farrun, maybe both 3 cells? The problem with the naming is that it also should feel authentic to High Rock. I also do agree that Blackhead is a bad name for the Balfiera isles settlement. Balfieri(s), maybe? :P

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Re: Map Discussion

Post by roerich » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:59 am

The cell numbers for each city is really hard to plan ahead, it's up to landscape and exterior design. But Karthwasten is four cells, and it is a very large city. I see both Jehenna and Farrun as smaller cities, not major trade hubs like Karthwasten. Three cells for each would probably be fine, but the temptation to create mega-cities has been a bottleneck for all province projects.

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Re: Map Discussion

Post by Ted » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:24 pm

We may see lists of all cities of daggerfall in uesp wiki and choose names you like

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Re: Map Discussion

Post by ThomasRuz » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:34 am

Generally we want to confine the larger cities to 3-4 cells, and plan as much within that border. Some cities IRL also had to built in a set amount of space, so we have to be creative on how to tackle it, building more vertically might be an option for that, as I stated before on the Discord. Normal cities for example Dwynnen should always be 2 cells, and towns and villages one cell, or part of one cell for outposts and such. I think we can't just pick town/city names willy-nilly. I believe there indeed are lists of town/city names on UESP, but w'e'll have to look at where those settlements are in which region, then pick stuff from there. I may work on the Gridmap today, not sure.

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Re: Map Discussion

Post by R-Zero » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:08 pm

roerich wrote:Other names are too high fantasy, like "Raven Spring" or "White Haven" and should be dedefecated.
I don't see how these are bad. Especially considering we have an NPC from White Haven right there in Balmora.

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Rough Region Map Concept

Post by ThomasRuz » Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:29 pm


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Re: Map Discussion

Post by Ted » Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:31 am

I guess dark green is moors, vut where Illesian hills?
Also maybe not bad idea divide orange region to 2 regions - wayrest had a little bit different climate.

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Re: Map Discussion

Post by R-Zero » Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:53 am

Heare are all the known maps of the region, in order of appearance:

TES Arena:
Image

TES2: Daggerfall
Image

Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition (Redguard, Morrowind):
Image

TESA: Redguard
Image

Pocket Guide to the Empire, 3rd Edition (Oblivion):
Image

TES Anthology
Image

As you can see, Arthmodeus' map is mostly based on Daggerfall, which is an outlier among others and sometimes not even correct according to its own lore (in History of Daggerfall, the city is described as being situated "North of the Highest bluffs, south of the moors, west of the hills, and east of the sea", whereas in the game it's south of the hills, north of the sea, east of the moors etc.)

As such, I took a liberty to make a new map, with the shape of the province being more reminiscent of PGE1 one (which, as I understand, is the main lore source of Project Tamriel):
Image
The overall dimensions and province borders are still the same so there'll be no conflicts with SHotN (or the not yet existing Hammerfell project).

Considering the regions, the best sources we currently have are Arena and Daggerfall map, as these are colored and as such forests and mountains can be seen on them. And thankfully, with the new province shape it would be easy to translate Arena info on it. Currently working on it, stay tuned for the update.

At the end, let me post a list of possible regions:

Daggerfall Bluffs/Highest Bluffs
https://www.imperial-library.info/conte ... -narrative
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:A_History_of_Daggerfal
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Region_Numbers (#03, unused)

Ilessan Hills
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ilessan_Hills

Glenumbra Moors
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Glenumbra_Moors_(barony)

Skeffington Wood
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Region_Numbers (#27, unused)
See also: viewtopic.php?f=154&t=847

Dellese Isles
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Gui ... /High_Rock
http://lagbt.wiwiland.net/index.php?tit ... /Unwritten
(WARNING, part of PGE2)

Plateau of North Kambria
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Gui ... /High_Rock

Wrothgarian Mountains
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Wrot ... _Mountains
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Gui ... /High_Rock

I don't think Western Reach or Iliac Bay should be regions, because they sound more like district/ove names (like Vvardenfell or Telvannis in Morrowind).
Last edited by R-Zero on Sat May 06, 2017 7:20 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Map Discussion

Post by R-Zero » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:41 am

A rough take on region placement. Based mainly on Arena map and lore descriptions:
Image
(nstc = name subject to change)

1. Glenumbra Moors
Hilly terrain with low vegetation and little to no trees.

2. Some Kind Of Plains (nstc)
Could be an important farming region, to support relatively high population of Daggerfall.

3. Daggerfall Bluffs
Also known as "Highest Bluffs". Exactly what it say in the tin: wide, steep cliffs at the ende of Iliac Bay.

4. Ilessan Hills
Forested hills with bald peaks. See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysa_Hora_(folklore)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brocken
A homeland of Glenmoril Wyrd.

5. Skeffington Wood
A forest burned during the Warp.
See viewtopic.php?f=154&t=847

6. Ravennia
Woodlands, slowly rising up towards Norcambria Plateau. Named after Ravennian Forest.

7. Norcambria Plateau
Described in PGE1 as "the windswept plateau of North Kambria". Slightly renamed to avoid confusion with Kambria the barony.

8. Dellese Islands
Offhandedly mentioned in PGE1 and PGE2. Most likely it's Balfiera and its sister islands, as these are the only prominent archipelago in High Rock.

9. Wrothgarian Foothills
Hilly terrain at the base of Wrothgarian Mountains. As with the mountains themselves, climate and vegetation depends on the elevation.

10. Wrothgarian Mountains
According to PGE1, apparently are forested all the way up to the peaks, Arena map shows the snow line though. Needs clarification.

11. Some Kind Of Rocky Desert (nstc)
A cold mountain desert.

12. Not!Caledonian Forest (nstc)
A pine forest. Surprisingly temperate for its northern position.

13. Another Forest (nstc)
Forests surroundting the Crypt of Hearts.

14. Bjoulsae Lowlands
Fertile plain region, supports Wayrest population. Includes sandy islands in Bjoulsae Delta.

15. Bjoulsae Basin
A bit more hilly region, home of the nomadic Horse-Tribes.

16. Western Reach Highlands
Described as having "rolling hills and pleasant valleys". Was "fashioned... into an impregnable bastion", thus probably has a large number of Direnni strongholds.

17. Druadach Mountains
Mountains marking the border with Skyrim.

18. Creag Coast
A jagged coastline with large number of fjords.

19. Dragonfields
A large, lightly forested valley leading towards Dragonstar.

20. Iliac Bay
Waters of the Iliac Bay itself.

21. Balothian Bay
Waters of the large northern bay.
Last edited by R-Zero on Sat May 06, 2017 8:14 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Map Discussion

Post by roerich » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:54 am

This is looking great!

Thoughts:

- Scrap Daggerfall Bluffs and Deselle Islands and just make them Illiac Bay Region. I think they are too small, and the regions can still be referred to in lore (like the foyadas)
- Possibly combine Daggerfall bluffs with the yet-unnamed plains region.
- Rename Wrothgarian Foothills to Wrothgarian Highlands
- Ravennia is an awesome region name. Ravennian Crossbowmen should be highly priced mercenaries.
- Solitude Forest in Shotn's Haafinheim would be a good reference for Not!Caledonian Forest
- Druadach Mountains should be relatively flat-topped compared to Dragontails or Wrothgarians, to work with the slightly lower mesas of Skyrim's Reach.
- Bjoulsae. Not sure if these could be combined to a "Bjoulsae River Region". There's something that bothers me with the two, but I don't have a good solution. Basin and Lowlands are fine names after all, but I'm not sure the regional distinction calls for a seperation like this. As a rule of thumb, two regions next to each other having the same name is a bad idea.
- Another Forest could be an eerie cold pine forest. Name: Heldun Forest, Scyra Forest, Wudhinean Forest
- Some Kind Of Rocky Desert (nstc) could be named something -head or -hammer.

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Re: Map Discussion

Post by ThomasRuz » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:31 am

Also couple of things:
- I agree with Roerich that the Daggerfall Bluffs and Deselle Islands should be merged into the Illiac bay region, but NOT the Daggerfall bluffs with the unnamed plains region, I think those should be different.
- Ravennia is a good name, certainly better than the forest of Lateugand. :)
- The some kind of rocky desert(tm), should be a sort of tundra in my opinion, seeing how north it is. Not!Celadonian forest should then also be a forest with a very winter-like feel, and should maybe also be extended as it is rather small.
- I think Dragonfields could still be a bit bigger.
- Seeing as you have part of the Shoreline as Western Reach, I'd rather see that being part of the Creag coast.
- The thought of an eerie cold forest was already the idea with mistwood in my region proposal, which would then be the "Another forest", we need another name for it, but we can keep the same characteristics, I'd also like for it to be expanded a bit south/south-east aswell.
- I think the rest is good :P

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Re: Map Discussion

Post by R-Zero » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:58 am

roerich wrote: - Scrap Daggerfall Bluffs and Deselle Islands and just make them Illiac Bay Region. I think they are too small, and the regions can still be referred to in lore (like the foyadas)
ThomasRuz wrote: - I agree with Roerich that the Daggerfall Bluffs and Deselle Islands should be merged into the Illiac bay region, but NOT the Daggerfall bluffs with the unnamed plains region, I think those should be different.
Merged Deselle Islands and Bluffs into Iliac bay. I wonder if the latter is such a good idea though, as Iliac Bay Region has otherwise no mainland presense.
roerich wrote: - Rename Wrothgarian Foothills to Wrothgarian Highlands
Any particular reason? "Foothills" works pretty well in this context.
roerich wrote: - Bjoulsae. Not sure if these could be combined to a "Bjoulsae River Region". There's something that bothers me with the two, but I don't have a good solution. Basin and Lowlands are fine names after all, but I'm not sure the regional distinction calls for a seperation like this. As a rule of thumb, two regions next to each other having the same name is a bad idea.
Combined these regions.
ThomasRuz wrote: - The some kind of rocky desert(tm), should be a sort of tundra in my opinion, seeing how north it is. Not!Celadonian forest should then also be a forest with a very winter-like feel, and should maybe also be extended as it is rather small.
Highland Tundra? This could work.
Personally I'd like to subvert the "North = Cold" scheme a bit in HR, driving some inspiration from Caledonian Forest in Scotland (hence the name), making it relatively temperate.
On the other hand, cold forest could work too, given that Wrothgarians would block at least some sunlight.
I tried to chip some of the neighbouring region lands to add to it while still keeping the distinctive shape from Arena map.
roerich wrote: - Another Forest could be an eerie cold pine forest.
ThomasRuz wrote: - The thought of an eerie cold forest was already the idea with mistwood in my region proposal, which would then be the "Another forest", we need another name for it, but we can keep the same characteristics, I'd also like for it to be expanded a bit south/south-east aswell.
I dig the cold pine forest idea. Although I think we should consider all possible forest types, to make our woodlands more varied. Make a list, perhaps.
This forest region is already noticeable larger than on Arena map. Also, it's really not that small - only a bit smaller than MW's Grazelands region, and if we'll make it dense enough it would seem even bigger.
ThomasRuz wrote: - I think Dragonfields could still be a bit bigger.
I think it would be better not to oversize it, seeing that in Shadowkey it was a relatively small region.
Also, a sizeable part of it would most likely be in modern Hammerfell territory.
ThomasRuz wrote: - Seeing as you have part of the Shoreline as Western Reach, I'd rather see that being part of the Creag coast.
One of the defining features of Creag Coast is its jagged shoreline. I'm not against extending it per se, but it would require changing the coast shape too.
Also, I kinda like how it stops right where the Balothian Bay coast starts.

Current state of region map:
Image

I also changed Alcaire area to Wrothgarian Foothills to reduce possible weather flickering when wandering around it.

Alternatively:
Image
Last edited by R-Zero on Sat May 06, 2017 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Map Discussion

Post by Ted » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:22 pm

Maybe change placement of moors to edge? Tulune kinds swampy regian and glenumbra in tes2 is most west region (most south in current high rock map). And illesian hills kinda innier region that not touch water.

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Re: Map Discussion

Post by R-Zero » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:03 pm

Ted wrote:Maybe change placement of moors to edge? Tulune kinds swampy regian and glenumbra in tes2 is most west region (most south in current high rock map). And illesian hills kinda innier region that not touch water.
I had to reshuffle this region because of how different TES2 map is from all the others. Current Glenumbra Moors is also basically Clenumbra Moors + Northmoor.
Ilessan Hills as a geographic feature could as well be closer to the center. The Ilessan Hills the region touches the water to avoid thin straps of shore regions which would lead to strange weather behaviour.

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Re: Map Discussion

Post by cablegs » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:13 pm

I see where you're going with the subversion of not so cold regions in the north and I like the idea (especially the rocky desert).

It's fitting that Wayrest is in the Illiac Bay region seeing as it's "the jewel of the bay", but it might be better to include Daggerfall as part of the plains region that sits west of the city (like Vivec in the Ascadian Isles).

I think Skeffinton Wood could afford to be slightly larger. The idea is too cool to be that small of a region. Maybe take a few cells from Norcambria Plateau?

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Re: Map Discussion

Post by SGMonkey » Fri May 05, 2017 8:55 pm

It looks to me like you are coming up with new regions for the sake of having extra regions. High Rock isnt very big. It shouldnt have lots of mini regions. It wants to be more like Vvardenfall.

Name the large biomes.
Stuff like the plains to the south west, the rocky desert???, Ravennia, Skeffington Wood, Wrothgarian Foothills, Dragonfields, Druadach Mountains???. Its just too crowded... I don't see the point of having regions that are 4 cells wide just for the sake of it.

Youre suggesting we have around 18 regions!
When really we dont want much more than 6 or 7, 8 at the most.

Wrothgaria (With Shornhelm at the border)
The Western Reach (Containing Farrun and Jehanna)
Glenumbra (Large part of the peninsula)
Illiac Bay (Containing Daggerfall, Orsinium, Wayrest)
Bjoulsae (Posisbly containing Wayrest)
Area around Camlorn
The northern peninsula (containing Northpoint, possibly even Evemore)


Also, wrong landmass.
Attachments
wl_pt_High Rock.jpg

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roerich
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Re: Map Discussion

Post by roerich » Sat May 06, 2017 5:23 am

Wow rude.

That said, I agree about downsizing the number of regions.
Last edited by roerich on Sat May 06, 2017 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Map Discussion

Post by R-Zero » Sat May 06, 2017 7:55 am

SGMonkey wrote:
Fri May 05, 2017 8:55 pm
It looks to me like you are coming up with new regions for the sake of having extra regions. High Rock isnt very big. It shouldnt have lots of mini regions. It wants to be more like Vvardenfall.
I disagree. It's exactly because High Rock is relatively small that it could benefit from smaller-sized and more diverse regions, especially taking into account the fact that this is probably the province with most vertically-varied terrain with very pronounced altitudial zonation and tons of natural climate zone borders. There's even a mention in PGE1 that "The geography of High Rock is as varied as its people."

Moreover, vanilla regions are actually not that large and sometimes have pretty thin parts:
Image
(keep in mind that some regions on this color map are larger than they seem because they include a lot of Inner Sea cells)
Here's a side-by-side image for easier comparison:
Image

SGMonkey wrote: Also, wrong landmass.
I presented my points on why the original map was bad in one of the above posts.

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Re: Map Discussion

Post by roerich » Sat May 06, 2017 8:21 am

I think some of the regions could do being merged. Like the Wrothgarian foothills just being Wrothgarian Mts. You can still make "hidden" subregions having the same name but different ID's, and thus different weather settings, i.e. if you want snow for the tallest peaks.

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Re: Map Discussion

Post by R-Zero » Sat May 06, 2017 9:02 am

roerich wrote:
Sat May 06, 2017 8:21 am
I think some of the regions could do being merged. Like the Wrothgarian foothills just being Wrothgarian Mts. You can still make "hidden" subregions having the same name but different ID's, and thus different weather settings, i.e. if you want snow for the tallest peaks.
I'm not against it per se, but what would it accomplish? Player would still get a region change message even when crossing between regions with same names. Plus, the environments above and below snow lines would be very distinct from one another. Is there a reason to for them to keep the same name in that case?

As an alternative, these two could be renamed to "Wrothgarian Mountains Region" and "Wrothgarian Peaks Region", I guess.

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Re: Map Discussion

Post by roerich » Sat May 06, 2017 11:17 am

I just think it looks better, really. I don't like having two similarly named regions next to one another, and the region name message is really the littlest of worries. I'm not vehemently against it, I just think it would look good to have a giant Wrothgarian Mountains region.

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Re: Map Discussion

Post by R-Zero » Sat May 06, 2017 12:10 pm

roerich wrote:
Sat May 06, 2017 11:17 am
I just think it looks better, really. I don't like having two similarly named regions next to one another, and the region name message is really the littlest of worries.
From what I understand, it's actually the main worry? I mean, the main, defining differences between regions are their environment and weather settings, and in this particular case these will be quite apparent due to altitudinal zonation. I understand the problem of having two similarly named regions near each other, but in this case they occupy sorta the same place geographically?
Maybe in this case we could employ a naming scheme not unlike the ones used in Solstheim and, from what I heard, SHotN, namely, with Wrothgarian Mountaing being a "superregion":
"Wrothgarian Mountains, Glacial Region"
"Wrothgarian Mountains, Slopes Region"
or something to that effect?

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