The Redguard Armor

Any province related discussion not fitting into other categories
Post Reply
User avatar
worsas
Project Administrator
Posts: 2103
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:23 am

The Redguard Armor

Post by worsas » Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:13 am

I'm currently facing the following problems with this armor:

In my opinion, it's not an armor that should be representative of the Redguards as a whole race (like orc armor, for example). It wasn't even made with the thought of having a redguard armor in the first place. On the other hand, the feather adornment (compare with the redguard headdress) and the green-yellow cloth elements still give it a somewhat redguard-ish look. Though, the armor design is certainly related to similar chain- and ringmail armors used by Colovians and Nords.

For SHOTN the armor came very handy, because it creates a nice visual analogy to the nord guards on the other side of the border. It takes the role of a guard armor in crown-controlled areas here. However, that would make the armor pretty much unusuable for P:C. it was brought here by Saint Jiub, however, and we should try to get on a page about its function in the gameworld rather than disregard each other about it. The ultimate question: Do I need to create a new armor set for the redguards in The 'Reach or is it anyhow possible to make a retreat on these armor pieces? Either would be acceptable solutions to me.

[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/1jVIukY.png[/hsimg]

User avatar
Ted
Forumite
Posts: 96
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:25 pm

Post by Ted » Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:30 am

It will be good if redguards have something more like redguards. In my opinion if you do new armor - this will be great.
But if you remade this armor - this is will be awesome too. Armor had great bace concept but I don't like the texture - in game it looks not good. Something like your last armor for skyrim will be better.

User avatar
worsas
Project Administrator
Posts: 2103
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:23 am

Post by worsas » Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:20 pm

I think I'll really make a dedicated armor for the Redguards in Skyrim and leave this one alone.

User avatar
Saint_Jiub
P:C Council Member
Posts: 446
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:44 pm

Post by Saint_Jiub » Sat Apr 09, 2016 5:34 pm

Honestly, and I might take flak for this but here goes: I think we should scrap the existing guard armors for PC. City guards should be more of a regional militia rather than an arm of the legion, IMO, and honestly I've never really been that excited by Revenant's concept; that said, I also think the current vision of the project is a long way from where we were when Revenant first designed the set, so it feels somewhat out of place for me.

Instead, I propose that we use this set, with some tweaks, as a base for a Gold Coast guard armor (I'll tweak the cloth and feather colors for Stirk, Anvil, and Sutch).

In the same vein, I propose that this become the guard armor for Chorrol, Bruma, and Artemon:

[hsimg=]https://armstreet.com/catalogue/full/sl ... -armor.jpg[/hsimg]

And this the guard armor for Kvatch, Skingrad, and Sarchal:

[hsimg=]https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/or ... f19d04.jpg[/hsimg]

The advantages being that it creates more diversity (while the similar helmet shapes and silhouettes unify them as related sets), creates a distinction between city guards and the Legion which I think we need, and also creates some continuity between PC and SHOTN since it's also a similar silhouette to your guard armor while still being distinct on closer inspection. As you said, I originally did make this as an Imperial set so it'd be cool to take it back to its roots.

EDIT:
Ted wrote:It will be good if redguards have something more like redguards. In my opinion if you do new armor - this will be great.
But if you remade this armor - this is will be awesome too. Armor had great bace concept but I don't like the texture - in game it looks not good. Something like your last armor for skyrim will be better.
This is the first I've heard that the armor has issues in-game: What exactly is the problem with it (screenshots would help too)? I can easily make tweaks to the texture if needed.

User avatar
Infragris
Project Administrator
Posts: 1301
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:51 pm

Post by Infragris » Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:56 pm

Sounds good. This makes managing guard armor a lot simpler: I was never that sold on having separate cuirasses for every single settlement, nor that they were that similar to the Legion armor. Raised more questions than it solved.

User avatar
worsas
Project Administrator
Posts: 2103
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:23 am

Post by worsas » Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:58 pm

I can somehow see where you are coming from with this thought on replacing the guard armors, but when I replace our current roman-esque guard armors with these ones in my mind, everything moves into a more generic, medieval feeling for me. There has always been a certain ring to these roman looking imperial guards, which would be sorely missed.

Actually, these slavic armors that have popped up recently... not sure on them, honestly. I know that the Colovians have these chainmail armors going for them aswell and that local militias with similar to these would be a great addition, but not necessarily in the sense of a replacement. Roman-style armors are also not limited to the Legion. If you look at the existing armor concepts, many of them carry a slight touch of that influence, if only by that subtle ridge ontop of the helmets.

Edit: Reworded post to make more sense.

User avatar
vrolok
PT Modder
Posts: 165
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:14 pm

Post by vrolok » Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:04 pm

Hmm, I myself am on a fence with this one. I love these armors, but I would probably prefer to see different armors for each county or region, though it is easy for me to say, since I am not a modeller :oops: Some could share very similar armors, but maybe with a few different details and at the very least have different colors, closer to the city banner. It shouldn't be too hard to dye certain pieces of armor. Shields with county's coat of arms. I would also prefer different helmets, even if armor was similar, since helmet is one of the most defining elements of armor. Even if they are militia, they need to have some sort of uniformity and differences between municipalities.

"Empire is the law, the law is sacred"
Last edited by vrolok on Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Saint_Jiub
P:C Council Member
Posts: 446
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:44 pm

Post by Saint_Jiub » Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:14 am

worsas wrote:I can somehow see where you are coming from with this thought on replacing the guard armors, but when I replace our current roman-esque guard armors with these ones in my mind, everything moves into a more generic, medieval feeling for me. There has always been a certain ring to these roman looking imperial guards, which would be sorely missed.

Actually, these slavic armors that have popped up recently... not sure on them, honestly. I know that the Colovians have these chainmail armors going for them aswell and that local militias with similar to these would be a great addition, but not necessarily in the sense of a replacement. Roman-style armors are also not limited to the Legion. If you look at the existing armor concepts, many of them carry a slight touch of that influence, if only by that subtle ridge ontop of the helmets.

Edit: Reworded post to make more sense.
"Roman-style armors are also not limited to the Legion."

I agree, which is partially why I feel that we should feel free to explore other themes as well. Kirkbride's Imperial chain helm (the strident coif) is pretty similar to these and exists alongside the crested helms in his artwork- we shouldn't be afraid to explore other silhouettes either.

[hsimg=]http://40.media.tumblr.com/a15e421c4f3d ... 3_1280.jpg[/hsimg]

One thing to consider, the crests show up pretty consistently on upper-class armor- Templars, the steel sets, dragonscale, etc. It makes sense that more expensive/valuable armors would also be more intricate. I also think these shapes are less generic than the Imperial chain armor that's already in the game, so it bridges that gap aesthetically which I think is a good thing.

[hsimg=]http://www.uesp.net/w/images/0/0f/MW-it ... r_Male.jpg[/hsimg]

User avatar
Anumaril
PT Modder
Posts: 82
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:06 am

Post by Anumaril » Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:57 am

I for one love these designs (granted a bias for having shared them) and the idea for more variety in guard armors, it serves to diversify the cities even further and create a greater sense of uniqueness in culture. I'd disagree with Worsas on it's genericness, as if anything, the HIGHLY Roman-influenced vanilla Imperial armors is what should be considered generic. However, I agree with him in the sense that these need some touch of central Imperial influence on them, where it makes sense. For instance, should an Imperial gauntlet or helmet design prove to better serve it's wearer, the design might be adopted by other regions in a way cohesive with their culture, geography, and general armor design. Similarly, there should be some distinguishing feature on all IMPERIAL guards that mark them as a servant of the Empire, rather than militia and those like them serving individual counties, perhaps the dragon crest. Though quality of armor is sure to already distinguish them.

User avatar
worsas
Project Administrator
Posts: 2103
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:23 am

Post by worsas » Sun Apr 10, 2016 9:56 am

Yes, I've seen the Strident Coif and agree that it should be featured. Infact, I don't have a problem with using all of these designs together. It is one of the things the Imperial province should be about.

I've not been meaning to imply that the slav-inspired armor itself would be more generic than the roman-influenced one. It's not about the armor itself, but how it interacts with the environment is what I've been trying to get at. At the moment I feel a strong aesthetical edge (if that makes sense) in the gold coast with those somewhat-roman houses, the sea and the savanna. We also have a set of western colovian shirts that are inspired by roman rolemodels, worn by the people around here. If the guards lose their current, iconic look, it will feel like a major letdown to me. I think this strong roman streak serves well as a declaration of intent to honor this influence. But I agree that it should, by far, not the only influence used.

Can't we make something similar to what we've done with the clothing by saying that there are western and northern colovian armors? The current guard armor would feel misplaced in the Colovian Highlands, for sure. I wouldn't mind using something different in Skingrad, either. I would be happy to have the current guard armor entirely limited to the goald coast and Stirk (Stirk, Anvil, Kvatch, which are already made). You could argue that this area of Colovia, due to being open to the world via Anvils harbor, is trying to give itself a more stylized picture, standing for the Imperial province as whole rather than looking like a Colovian backcountry. This would well play together with the fact that current Face of Anvil is one that was recently created. It's not coming from deeply colovian roots, but its designed and created after modern imperial tastes.

On a general note: I love the old concept drawings by MK, but I feel just as much committed to our very own approaches and designs and in case of doubt, would probably even prefer those over the former. The people that work with me here, are ultimately more important than what MK thought up more than 10 years ago. However, it doesn't mean, I don't want to use those, in the first place.

User avatar
Infragris
Project Administrator
Posts: 1301
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:51 pm

Post by Infragris » Sun Apr 10, 2016 11:26 am

... Can't we make something similar to what we've done with the clothing by saying that there are western and northern colovian armors? ...
That is a very good point, one that I think we should expand to cover other things, like architecture and culture in general. The County system is of a rather artificial nature, and I don't think we should use these recent political borders as our only guideline in deciding the nature of certain areas. Larger culture spheres would make more sense and are less work than re-inventing everything for every county. I think we can split Colovia up in three cultural areas:
  • West Coast Colovia: pretty much what worsas said, strong Roman influence with a Mediterranean vibe. Settlements like Anvil have been rebuilt relatively recently, and the first Counts of Anvil (Umbranox) were Heartlands Imperials, not Colovians. Kvatch can sort of go along with this as an "easternized" center of governance.
  • Central East Colovia: Skingrad and (maybe?) Kvatch, with lesser cities like Sarchal, Dethagrad, etc. Prosperous, urbanized Colovia, maybe the Slav connection can be strongest here?
  • North Colovia: most of the Colovian Highlands, with special focus on Chorrol and Mhorlagrad, but also the smaller villages to the south. The actual Highlands style, fundamentalist Colovia with stronger Nordic vibes.

User avatar
vrolok
PT Modder
Posts: 165
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:14 pm

Post by vrolok » Sun Apr 10, 2016 11:32 am

Stirk, Anvil and Kvatch should definitely use some more Roman/Greek designs, especially whose that are closer to the sea. That's true. They feel very mediterranean to me, especially Anvil and Stirk.

While Skingrad, which has even a slavic name, could use this design. Grad means town or city (e.g. Stalingrad, etc.) Makes sense to have slavic influence in Central and North Colovia, but not overdo it to all the west of Cyrodiil.

And once again, just a small plea of mine - different armours for different counties. At least with some slight texture edits, different colors, shields with insignias. You should be able to see that different guards have different affiliations to the regional power, even if they wear similar armors.

P.S. Pretty much agree with Infragris.

User avatar
Anumaril
PT Modder
Posts: 82
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:06 am

Post by Anumaril » Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:04 pm

Vrolok wrote:And once again, just a small plea of mine - different armours for different counties. At least with some slight texture edits, different colors, shields with insignias. You should be able to see that different guards have different affiliations to the regional power, even if they wear similar armors.
Something I'd have to disagree with, you'll know a guard when you see him, and I certainly don't think the Oblivion approach of emblems their grandmas sewed into their armor is the way to go. Having similar guard outfits in the cities of different regions would go a long way in showcasing cultural identity and influence. What Bethesda has been doing with recent titles like Skyrim and Oblivion, having guards display their affiliation on every item of their wardrobe, makes them look less like a serious means of protection and more like a sports team.

[hsimg=]http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/eld ... 1229163554[/hsimg]

User avatar
vrolok
PT Modder
Posts: 165
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:14 pm

Post by vrolok » Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:13 pm

Umm, no? It just makes sense in the context of Imperial authority. In Morrowind you have ruling houses, so the guards show you which ruling house guards they are. But you cannot have different counts and dukes and not show their authority. It has nothing to do with sport, just representing power institutions in place.

They don't need to wear surcoats like medieval knights, but they need to show whom they are loyal to and on whose authority they act. Colours and insignia are enough for that, while armour design can stay the same across different counties to represent cultural similarity.
having guards display their affiliation on every item of their wardrobe, makes them look less like a serious means of protection and more like a sports team.
That's actually extremely historical thing shared by most cultures I am aware. I don't really see the argument here, especially considering that armor is pretty historically accurate on the picture.

User avatar
Saint_Jiub
P:C Council Member
Posts: 446
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:44 pm

Post by Saint_Jiub » Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:07 pm

It's also fairly boring- the big problem with Oblivion's aesthetic was that it legitimately looked like many of the assets were made for a Daggerfall remake and then they decided halfway through to make a new province instead (look at Mehrunes Dagon or a Legion guard in both games and you'll see what I mean). When we talk about generic fantasy, to me a color-coded surcoat with a coat of arms is the epitome of this. We can communicate the same idea in more interesting ways- "Look child, the Skingrad guard is on parade! See how their klibanion coats shine in the morning light?" The town emblem could show up on their shields still, but I agree that having a whole color coded and branded uniform is a little too much.

Worsas, what about this as a compromise? Again, imagine the colors being tweaked to go together better.
[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/EwvIRtm.png[/hsimg]

User avatar
vrolok
PT Modder
Posts: 165
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:14 pm

Post by vrolok » Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:27 pm

The town emblem could show up on their shields still, but I agree that having a whole color coded and branded uniform is a little too much.
Let me give you an example, a great one is from Witcher 3 when Geralt's ship crashes and he recognizes the island because person is wearing colors of clan An Craite.

[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/ATMPWqS.png[/hsimg]

That is not boring, historically accurate and also quite clever, makes total sense. So even if guards wear similar armors in different counties to show their cultural closeness, they still need to show their allegiance. Some minor texture edits could do the job just right.

User avatar
worsas
Project Administrator
Posts: 2103
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:23 am

Post by worsas » Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:52 pm

Worsas, what about this as a compromise? Again, imagine the colors being tweaked to go together better.
Yeah, I think I could live with that compromise. I don't like the boots very much, though. Maybe replace them with the other guard boots?

Emblems on shields are no problem with me, or even ones that are on the chest, if not too large (like the horses on the morrowind legion armor). But I agree that colored cloth shirts with a big seal on them don't fit with the general mood.

User avatar
Infragris
Project Administrator
Posts: 1301
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:51 pm

Post by Infragris » Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:56 pm

One advantage of the guard armors in Morrowind is that they can be worn by non-guards as well: the Bonemold sets are representative of their culture in general. An armor set that is associated with, but not exclusive to the guards gives us more flexibility.

User avatar
vrolok
PT Modder
Posts: 165
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:14 pm

Post by vrolok » Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:16 pm

But I agree that colored cloth shirts with a big seal on them don't fit with the general mood.
I think everybody agrees on that. I myself have said "They don't need to wear surcoats like medieval knights". The surcoats really do not fit, at least not the guards. Maybe some knights, but even then it is questionable. It would much better fit High Rock province guards than Cyrodiil.
One advantage of the guard armors in Morrowind is that they can be worn by non-guards as well
As I see it, we can achieve that with chainmail and other armors. Just different regions will have different color on it, but they won't be associated purely with the guards, more with regional influence.

For instance, let's take one armor (for Skingrad and Chorrol county, for example):

It could be the same for both, but have slightly different colour. No surcoat, no large crests, minimum difference, only colors and shields. Call it "Skingrad Chainmail Armor" and "Chorrol Chainmail Armor". One has red and black details, other blue and white. It is easy to do technically, but it also helps player to understand in which county they are. We really need it, otherwise the guards of neighboring counties will look identical and it would be a mess. Am I the only one who thinks that?

User avatar
Saint_Jiub
P:C Council Member
Posts: 446
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:44 pm

Post by Saint_Jiub » Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:04 pm

worsas wrote:
Worsas, what about this as a compromise? Again, imagine the colors being tweaked to go together better.
Yeah, I think I could live with that compromise. I don't like the boots very much, though. Maybe replace them with the other guard boots?

Emblems on shields are no problem with me, or even ones that are on the chest, if not too large (like the horses on the morrowind legion armor). But I agree that colored cloth shirts with a big seal on them don't fit with the general mood.
I kind of like the boots- FWIW, this is the real-life armor set I referenced when I was designing it:

[hsimg=]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-g_zbtZRMyVE/U ... lry_19.jpg[/hsimg]

To me, the baggy pants and big leather boots are part of what makes it cool and separates it from a standard fantasy depiction of chainmail- that said, my texturing skills have improved *a lot* since the first time I did textures, so I can make something that looks a little more structured and less like an Ugg boot :P I'm already planning on redoing these textures next once I finish the northern chainmail.

User avatar
vrolok
PT Modder
Posts: 165
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:14 pm

Post by vrolok » Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:47 pm

Some other designs for inspiration for possible replacer if you decide to do it:

[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/RW6yCiG.jpg[/hsimg][hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/wtMIPJD.jpg[/hsimg][hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/rzeBvKK.jpg[/hsimg]
Last edited by vrolok on Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
R-Zero
PT Modder
Posts: 326
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:50 pm

Post by R-Zero » Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:57 pm

Some designs from the Origin of Cyrus comic:
[hsimg=]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/100 ... _cyrus.jpg[/hsimg]
Bottom right are play costumes, but still very cool-looking.

User avatar
Saint_Jiub
P:C Council Member
Posts: 446
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:44 pm

Post by Saint_Jiub » Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:51 pm

Vrolok, please try to limit the reference pics to one or two at a time- they're really cool, but these threads get kind of cluttered otherwise. Alternately, we do have a couple of inspiration threads for exactly those kinds of posts.

User avatar
vrolok
PT Modder
Posts: 165
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:14 pm

Post by vrolok » Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:12 pm

Okay, sorry I will do just that! Couldn't really decide on the specific one

Post Reply

Return to “P:C Cyrodiil Discussion”