Rethinking the knightly orders

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Rethinking the knightly orders

Post by Infragris »

The knightly orders, as they are present in design documents and planning up until now, need some rethinking. The current knightly orders are based on two sources: the old Daggerfall lore which had an order per Divine with its own quests and progression, and the Oblivion knightly orders like the Knights of the White Stallion etc. Implementing the Daggerfall knights was, in hindsight, maybe not such great idea: this concept of knighthood is very much based in the Breton/medieval Europe setting which we wish to move away from, and has little relevance for Cyrodiil. The Oblivion knights draw from the same inspiration, and were (in my opinion) not the most relevant addition to the game. If possible, I would like to scrap these factions in favor of more culture-specific groups.

There are a couple of other mentions of Cyrodiilic knights, like the upper ranks of the Legion, the Blades, and the Red Templars. These have a more military identity, and in the case of the Blades adhere more to a far eastern/samurai aesthetic - no problems with these.

My proposal would be to cut any ties with the knights as depicted in Daggerfall, and retool the knightly orders as circles/lodges of nobility dedicated to a saint or multiple saints. This would give these groups a more overt Imperial identity, focus on fleshing out the Saints of Cyrod, and (if we add them mostly in Colovia) counterbalance the weird Nibenese totem-spirits with a typical western type of religiosity.


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Post by roerich »

Sounds like a good plan to me, I'm glad you brought it up.The knightly orders always came off a bit cheesy to me, even with your great effort to Cyrodiil-ify them. They felt like sports teams, especially as every deity needed one (and only one). Oblivion was the same, with every city seemingly only worshipping one divine.

Your plan on implementing them as circles/lodges sounds solid. Some of these groups may be directly associated with their relevant cult(s), some not. Some deities may not even have such a group representing them.

The Talos Cult would be one of the more extreme examples of these. There could be many variations on this theme; a fraternity of pious crusaders, guild-like religious orders dedicated to furthering the urban merchant class's sphere of influence, noble fraternities furthering their internal relationships and external power. I still think the Mithraic cults is a concept that fits well with Cyrodiil, but that will perhaps be sufficiently explored with the Talos Cult. Some of these could still function as a military order somewhat related to a cult, acting as temple guards, or lending martial aid when necessary. There'd still need to be a distinction between these orders and the regular guilds.

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Post by Sssk »

The Order of the Lamp should probably remain.

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Post by Saint_Jiub »

Late to the party on this, but I think you hit the nail on the head here.

It's worth noting that all of Oblivion's knightly orders are centered in Nibenay (the Knights of the Thorn in Cheydinhal, the Knights of the White Stallion in Leyawiin, and the Order of the Dragon in the Imperial City), so I think we have license to make them as weird as we want to fit with our vision of Cyrodiil.

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Post by TerrifyingDaedricFoe »

I think there should be some who see being a knight as a means to an end and those who see being a knight as an end in itself - outward looking orders and inward looking orders.

The outward looking orders have some objective they wish to achieve: fighting monsters, protecting the innocent, eradicating the undead, winning glory in glorious combat, maintaining order and the status quo, etc (these objectives don't have to be traditionally noble and knightly). The purpose of the order organisation is to bring together like-minded people and give them training and direction.

The inward looking orders are about spiritual or physical experience. They're more ritualistic and often secretive in their membership and practices. These are more closely related to Nibenese cults and real-world mystery religions.

The first might be typically Colovian and the second typically Nibenese, but there should be some degree of overlap between the two.

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