Worsas wrote:The argument of bird-creatures being based on Ayleid-influence sounds a little bit like there could be no birds in Cyrodiil anymore. That doesn't sound reasonable, considering there are birds in Skyrim with the hawk being a reverred animal. Why would the rule of the Imperials necessarily lead to such a massive vanishing of bird creatures?
Not quite what I was trying to imply, simply that based on the workings of the Tower, Ald Cyrod would have been suited to the Ayleids. That being jungles across the province, subtropical climate, feathered creatures around every turn, etc. I've nothing against inclusion of Jiub's bird creatures, in fact, I love the designs and didn't mean to come across otherwise. I was more or less brainstorming, sharing opinions on the subject. If they were to be included, I'd just think it interesting to have them play into Tower lore a bit, create some of that mythic suspicion Morrowind had in it's more metaphysical concepts. I certainly see them being prevalent within Nibenay, which as of current P:C concepts, seems to have some form of jungle within it. This creates quite a lot of opportunity for creative design and I wholeheartedly support it. I've had Colovia on the brain, and was against their inclusion in that region.
Vrolok wrote:I do rather fancy the idea of harpies and Ayleid connection though, now that I think about it. There could be a lot of possible connections between the two. Who knows? Maybe they are product of Ayleid experiments? Or maybe they were Ayleid and somehow became this (Falmer/Riekling route)? Or maybe there is something else entirely going on? Possibilities are quite various and it doesn't even have to be clear, it could be ambiguous with several theories going on.
Of any concept, this is one I really do oppose. Include harpies if they work, but please, omit the feathers. Humanoid feathered things would certainly allude to Ayleid given P:C's design of the elves, a connection I really don't see working. Ayleids becoming harpies just sounds silly and a copy/paste of Skyrim's Falmer, Bloodmoon's Rieklings, and that panned 'Dworc' theory that circulated about the lore community. Honestly, the only possible reason I see for Ayleid-harpies to have been a thing is through some curse placed by a Daedric prince, a theme which has occurred far too often in TES to be considered original.
R-Zero wrote:You must understand that the "tower shaping the land" "lore" is nothing more than an excuse for retconning the jungle Cyrod out - the same way "From the Many-Headed Talos" MK spewed out years after Oblivion did it is. Also ZOS' damage control after their "transcription error" fiasco.
P:C goes with the original PGE1 interpretation afaik, so these concepts don't need to apply.
Regardless of what the motivation behind a piece of interesting lore is, if it fits and is widely accepted, I don't see what is so wrong about taking it into consideration. Metaphysics are just as huge a part in TES as any other facet of the world. Despite their mistake, ZOS made up for it in their Tower lore, which is now the basis for much of what we understand about the structures. P:C uses the PGE1 as a base, and any interesting lore that might benefit the project, at least last time I checked. You may have an issue with some of what ESO or MK have done, but that doesn't mean all their works are to be ignored. I've issues with Oblivion, yet the Ayleid are my favorite subject. I love MK's work, but things like Ayrenn = KINMUNE I find to be ridiculous at best. You just have to be selective.
Berry wrote:I am not a lore expert by any means, but isn't the "material world vs. what's metaphysical" dichotomy the main conflict of Cyrodill, since the mythical days of the elven rulers and the Alessian uprising? I'm just saying that seen from the side, this heated discussion you guys are having is exactly that: a conflict between what can be considered normal by a player, and between what is mythological, fantastical, bizarre. So how about naming that a dominating theme for the province?
This is pretty much what I was trying to say, just couldn't get across so clearly. "Mundane v Magick", "Physical v Metaphysical", "Ald-Cyrod v Nu-Cyrod" These are themes I believe are strongly present in Cyrodiil, and are apparent throughout history and in the other games. You've a province of man inherited by one of the most mysterious and magick-obsessed elven races in history. From the Alessian Order to the banning of Necromancy, there is a constant debate within the Empire as to Magick's place in society as well as what's ethical when it comes to it's use. I think this is a very strong theme that may be reflected in nearly every subject of the world.
Now, when I say 'Mundane', I in no way support sheep, dogs, deer, and other creatures of Earth within Cyrodiil. But, things like the Belhak or wild Pahmar would be grounded close enough to reality in regions like Colovia, to make the strangeness of bird-based animals and multi-headed snakes more apparent in Nibenay.
Worsas wrote:I'd actually had thought that the Nibenay was the melting pot of influences and less much so Colovia. I don't know how much bearing such books as "Dance in fire" have, but I always thought that Valenwood had this kind of forest you're describing, while the inside of Cyrodiil, even the Nibenay would comparably hospitable and traversable. Though, ultimately, we are speaking about a huge area, so it's probably easy to have all kinds of varying landscape.
I actually assumed that as well before I really read up and investigated the topic. Take into consideration history and the surroundings of the land. You've got heavily-settled Colovia, a land that's seen a great number of wars, many being infighting between states. This region borders Hammerfell, Valenwood, Elsweyr, and holds the popular trading port of Anvil. It has all the means and reasons cultural exchange would occur, not to mention, past influence by the Ayleid. Then you have sparsely-settled Nibenay, a land of jungles, forests, and marshes; bordered by Argonia and Morrowind, two largely-xenophobic provinces. Just look at a map of Cyrodiil, Colovia has such cities as Kvatch, Skingrad, Sutch, and Chorrol, the only open region being the Imperial Reserve, which is populated by a number of Imperial forts. Now look at the east, the large, vacant stretch of the Nibenay Basin all the way down to Blackwood. It's only real cities being Cheydinhal and possibly Leyawiin (Bravil may as well be in Elsweyr, if you ask me), along with the decaying Mir Corrup (Which I assume to have held the monastic complex of the Alessians, if someone could confirm). This region has been forced to adopt it's own traditions and culture, not only due to the little opportunity foreign culture has had to influence them, but also due to the fact Ayleid culture was all but purged from the east by the Alessian Order. Now, that's not to say there is not sign of foreign influence on them, considering their heavy involvement in politics and the Eras of opportunity, but it is safe to say that they are by far the more isolated and less-influenced region between the two, though you are certainly right in saying there is varying possibility within sub-regions
TL;DR: Colovia is heavily-populated and enjoys a great exchange in trade and culture. Nibenay is sparsely-populated save for their cities and lacks the same trade capabilities, with most cultural influence coming from the rare travelling trader, tourist, or through their political activities.