Cyrodiil Creatures

[Anumaril]

Spiders and Scorpions

Not sure about the wilderness, but any Mephala-centeric areas, such as Ayleid city-states who worshiped the Daedra (If these even exist, I've been working on the pantheon and extended deities, but have not come to a decision on Mephala yet), would use Dridrea (Spider Daedra) and have no use for giant spiders. As such, I feel they'd just act as a less-interesting wilderness version of the Dridrea, and there's not much interesting you can do with them to separate them from generic fiction outside of a connection to Mephala.

I've similar opinions on the scorpion, I feel it simply too generic of desert and near-desert regions to warrant inclusion. However, I do like the thought of some poisonous , ambushing creature in the region, perhaps something more original and fast-moving, some kind of glass-cannon enemy, weak but packs an incredible punch (Maybe some kind of snake-like Kit Fox, Mountain Lion, or Coyote; though nowhere near the degree of New Vegas' Night Stalkers). Would fit in with your idea for Colovian warfare being inspired by it, hit-and-run tactics perhaps.

[vrolok]

Not sure about the wilderness, but any Mephala-centeric areas, such as Ayleid city-states who worshipped the Daedra (If these even exist, I've been working on the pantheon and extended deities, but have not come to a decision on Mephala yet), would use Dridrea (Spider Daedra) and have no use for giant spiders. As such, I feel they'd just act as a less-interesting wilderness version of the Dridrea, and there's not much interesting you can do with them to separate them from generic fiction outside of a connection to Mephala.

First of all, even if these two (Dridrea and Giant Spiders) are included in the mod, I personally see nothing wrong with it. I might be wrong though, it is kinda repetitive, but not too bad IMHO. As for portrayal of common spiders - several things:
- jungle creatures to emphasize difference of this Cyrodiil and TES IV;
- weavers, emphasize symbolic connection to moth;
- connection to Mephala;
- lore-friendly creature, no need to invent new wheel.

For Scorpions:
- portray the harshness of Colovia better in my opinion;
- connection to Hammerfell and Redguard warriors culture;
- possible ties to legion tactics;
- lore-friendly creature, no need to invent new wheel.

Most importantly, even though it is a cliche, it's still not overused too much. The idea of spiders vs. scorpions is similar to vampires vs. werewolves in pop culture. I believe this aspect could be further emphasized in Nibenese vs. Colovian theme to bring bigger distinction to fauna of the regions, because both scorpions and spiders are just wild animals, not monsters or magical creations.



Once again, I hope I am not pushing my opinion. I just believe that these two could be portrayed in a way, which will only improve the narrative and the world. Plus, they already exist in the lore, which is a big thing for me. If they weren't lore-friendly creatures, I myself would be asking for something more interesting. I just believe that it would be better to show already known creatures from a different angle this time.

[Anumaril]

Creatures

Don't worry about pushing your opinion, we're all here to discuss and support our ideas.

As for the two being 'lore friendly', I don't think that's much of point, as this project already moves away from conventional 'canon'. Just because something exists in the lore, doesn't mean it provides much in making Tamriel an interesting place. I mean, let's be honest, Bethesda's included some rather uninspired designs into their games (Looking at you, Oblivion).

My biggest issues with the two have somewhat been stated, the spider has no purpose (Unless there's a resource and no reason not to use it) considering the existence of the more interesting Spider-Daedra, and I just see little reason the scorpion should exist as an enemy. I definitely see scorpions existing within the lore, as smaller creatures dangerous to anyone sleeping in the wilderness (Inspired to write a lorebook on smaller in-lore creatures outside the 'Rogues Gallery'), but I see no reason they'd be giant, I think that alludes too greatly to the Fallout franchise.

[Anumaril]

Hollowed Wraiths

Just had a thought on the Hollowed Wraiths of Reman-Era ruins:

Continuing with the apparent theme of 'loyalty-after-death', while lingering Tsaesci and undead would be inspired to rise against intruders due to their eternal oath to Reman, the Hollowed Wraiths, being nothing but empty suits of armor, would be inspired to rise and would be animated by the mythic inspiration of the Emperor imbued upon them by the adorned Reman Diamond insignia. After all, there is great power in both names and symbols within the Aurbis.

[vrolok]

Both giant spider and scorpion are included in Piratelord's Creature Mod, so it shouldn't be too hard to use them. As far as I am aware, the quality is relatively good. They could probably use new textures, maybe slight model changes, but otherwise I think they are okay. I could be wrong, though.

If there are no quality resources available and they need to be made from scratch then yeah, maybe something else could replace them. Manticores come to my mind (even though they probably have no place in Cyrodiil) But still, I do think that spiders and scorpions make sense. It's all about similarity and difference, familiarity and strangeness.

Plus I really like the idea of spiders having sort of mystical connection to the moth, especially in some sorts of religious cults of Niben.

Gameplay wise, both Giant Spiders and Scorpions are going to be similar. Paralysis + maybe venom in combat, but otherwise they are wild animals living in caves and sometimes encountered outside in the wilderness. Both are region specific.

For further differentiation, they could be included as symbols for various organizations. As I mentioned, there could be a spider cult in Niben, while Colovia might have Scorpion's Knight Order. They also need some more inspired names to fit the world better, not sure what exactly though.

Spiders and Scorpions don't go too well with bird theme of Cyrodiil, but I would leave heavy bird emphasis for Ayleid. Niben already has a cult of moth.

Giant Spider and Scorpion as portrayed in Daggerfall:

[worsas]

I feel as if you two would make this all much more complicated than it really is. The whole Nibenay, if it ever was to be created, would be several times the size of Vvardenfell. I doubt that bird-themed and spider-creatures would get in each others way too much (spider silk seems like a twisted, funny idea). The landmass is so large, that nothing really speaks against some diversity. I can totally agree about Spider and Scorpion with Vrolok, btw. The scorpion as a creature that lives in arid places and rests below rocks, would work greatly in the gold coast and Colovian Highlands, if only to characterize the regions they are in. There is also no problem in rescaling these creatures. The scorpion could be made half as big as it is in the modder resource.

[Infragris]

One of the main (though far from the only) problems with using spider/scorpions is that the theme of giant bugs is Morrowind turf. The in-universe alien nature of the far east is explicitly linked to the fact that they have these enormous insects everywhere. As such, upscaled bugs (or arachnids, as the case were) are one concept that we shouldn't be using. Also, it's just way too generic and doesn't fit at all with the other creature concepts we have going.

Maybe read this. I don't suffer from arachnophobia, but I agree with the writer's point that spiders and spider-like enemies are some of the most overplayed concepts in videogames.

[vrolok]

but I agree with the writer's point that spiders and spider-like enemies are some of the most overplayed concepts in videogames.

Yeah, that's true, but strangely enough it's one of the main reasons I would've liked to see them. I think I'll feel that they are missing otherwise Jungle setting seems like quite a good place for them to be in logically.

It's not a big deal probably, but still a possibility. I feel that if integrated properly, both creatures can be portrayed rather interestingly, even if they are kinda generic.

[worsas]

I only know that TR are not planning to have any spiders in their province for similar reasons as stated here. But your point about making Mw stand out still stands, nonetheless. I would also avoid adding any overly large insects or spiders in Cyrodiil or Skyrim. I don't know, but I have a weird fable for classical things and I'd imagine small spiders crawling along the floors of imperial fortress ruins as a rather cool, oldschool-like feature, like the rats in MW, same for the Scorpions.

[Saint_Jiub]

I agree with worsas as far as implementing small, passive critters like scorpions and spiders- to date, ESO is really the only TES game to have small, ambient creatures like scorpions and frogs and it does a lot to make the world feel more alive and dynamic. I like your reflections on how they could fit into Imperial culture as well

I do think that having them in an oversized fashion would be a bit too on the nose- "hey, you're playing a western fantasy RPG!" I understand that's part of why you want them, because you feel that they would be missing otherwise, but in this case, they don't quite fit into the type of RPG we're trying to craft. I'm already suuuuuper on the fence about us having wolves and bears as enemies, and honestly if there were assets available that would fill that niche in a more interesting way, I would say let's take those out too.

[vrolok]

I just hope you won't overthink it too much I can understand the desire to make it as creative as possible. I mean it's a mod for Morrowind, right? And Morrowind did implement a lot of crazy stuff in an extremely good way. First time I've played it long time ago, I thought that it was very bizarre. Yet, my favourite faction is the Telvanni, so I got used to its strange ways and customs.

I only hope that it wouldn't be very lore-breaking. I am in complete support of changing things to make them more interesting than Oblivion was, and what I like even more is the way you guys are thinking about every single aspect of the world and its culture. Much more than TES IV or TES V did. So I am really looking forward to seeing these.

But I am also very conservative person and if something works well, I will always prefer it to something new and untested. But that's just me, you have your own vision and you are the ones doing the actual thing, so I only wish to provide some support. I absolutely love the ideas on Ayleid culture and Ayleids in general, since we have received almost no knowledge of them in TES IV. I also love ideas on Imperial culture, both Colovian and Nibenese, as well as in general. Some creature ideas are very cool too.

Just remember, that what actually is going to matter is not how creative and new the elements are, but how effectively they are used. If it plays the role and fits the world, then I think it's fine, whether it's a wolf, a spider or an uknown pile of weirdness Still, Morrowind is Morrowind, Cyrodiil should be a little less alien IMHO.

What I would totally love to see is a proper Argonia, Elsweyr, Valenwood or Summerset Isles. These places should really be crazy! No humans kinda gives more creative freedom I think. That's just my feeling. More humans there are, more familiar you expect the setting to be, just in general. Cyrodiil being cosmopolitan to an extent, should probably be somewhere in between. Just some thoughts

[worsas]

Just remember, that what actually is going to matter is not how creative and new the elements are, but how effectively they are used. If it plays the role and fits the world, then I think it's fine, whether it's a wolf, a spider or an uknown pile of weirdness

You are speaking straightly out of my heart.

More humans there are, more familiar you expect the setting to be, just in general.

I find this very important, as it helps us to indirectly define the merish provinces, like Morrowind, if we aim for a certain contrast on our half. This is partly, why I agree with Infragris about the bugs. At SHOTN we are already at a point where creatures like the wormmouth and the spikeworm take some of what makes Morrowind unique away. Though, I'm thinking that the Reachmen and the Aldmeri influences in this area somehow manage to justify a certain alienness.

[Moritius]

(...)moritaur(...)

Are you saying I will have my own cow-like creature? Nice!

I was thinking a bit about creatures and there are my thoughts (written by courtesy of Anonymous Mer ):
Lynx - this relatively big cat would fit to north-west, snowy part of Cyrodiil (Country Bruma ?). Should be non-hostile unless feel threaten (could be scripted e.g. player comes too close, it either atrack or flee). Quite rare.
Puma/mountain lion - similar size to lynx, hostile, habiting (Southern) Gold Coast; maybe it's my own vision because I love big cats (especially jaguars) but I think they would fit well.
Birds - that's it. I always thought Morrowind's sky is quite empty without mods (I don't count 15357567 cliffracers/m^2). Besides, those Ayleid freaks used plumes, right? They came from somewhere.
Twisted Shadow - I know, I know, a lot of undeads. I thought about them as weaker form of lich, effect of dark mages trying to get immortality. Could be assigned to one or two Ayleid ruins (and maybe some Mages Guild quest involving them?)
Gargoyles - I always assigned them with D&D setting (first time I fought them in Temple of Elemental Evil [cool game imho, and modding still exist to this day], then in Neverwinter Nights). Imho they don't fit well to TES (maybe High Rock, but I'm not sure though).
Spiders - would be nice but small ones (if you consider size of Vvardenfell rat as small). I've never liked those Skyrim big ones roamimg wildly.
Scorpions - size of human feet, not bigger. Qould be cool to saw them as critters hunting other small critters like sand scarabs. Could be used by some locals as weird for non-locals food.

I think that's all for now, if I remember something, will write more.

[vrolok]

At SHOTN we are already at a point where creatures like the wormmouth and the spikeworm take some of what makes Morrowind unique away.

Yeah, I honestly didn't like these guys too much. Too Morrowindish I think, but they'll probably grow on me as long as there aren't too many and they are used well, of which I am sure. Skyrim does need a lot of familiar animals like wolves, bears, even sabercats and mammoths. Maybe even some new creatures from Northern myths or just created as long as they feel Nordic.

I think that using giant spiders and scorpions is okay, because they are kinda in between. Not too alien, like Morrowind kwama or Silt Striders, but not too mundane. True, many games use them, but even game like Bloodborne, which I actually think was rather creative in its design, wasn't afraid to include them. Don't know. I am definitely in favour of giant spiders and scorpions, but no other insects, just these two. And then add some other creatures, so they don't stick out that much.

I'll just say that if there won't be any need for them, then just forget it. Yet, I feel like giant spiders might make jungles more terrifying, while scorpions make Colovia less hospitable, without being too alien and in your face about it. So if there will be a niche for them, then I would propose using them. Even if there won't be a need for actual creatures, all I said about Colovian/Nibenese dichotomy stays true and Scorpion vs. Spider symbolism can be incorporated in some fashion into the game.

I am not in favour of creatures smaller than a scrib, just because I am not sure they would look too good in Morrowind engine. Still, a venomous spider or scorpion in size of a scrib is very dangerous and very likely to be hostile, at least if you threaten it.

And personally, I neither like nor dislike spiders or scorpions. They are kinda alien to me, I don't see them very often. Not the big ones or venomous ones. I kinda find them interesting, even though I have seen them in many games. In some games they are scary, in some "Meh!", in some creepy, in some boring. It all boils down to how they are used. I believe they could be used well in P:C, but I won't be arguing about it. You can decide that on your own or maybe create a poll, though if you are really opposed to the idea, I am not going to criticize you. Developer's vision is central for project's integrity, I think. Up to you guys!

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Also, any thoughts about nymphs? It's a beautiful symbol, plus very antique. They could actually be very interesting. I can already see them involved in a few quests, plus some ways to integrate them into the world properly. It just seems like a very Imperial concept to me. Maybe I am using Ancient Greeks and Romans too often as influence for Imperials, but honestly, we haven't been given a glimpse of that aspect in neither Oblivion or Skyrim. Greek and Roman culture had a lot of its own interesting things, so I don't think they are cliche yet.

[Infragris]

About nymphs: Spriggans sort of fill that niche? I think there were plans to feature a number of spriggan variations whose colors/vegetation are adapted to the local flora. I like the idea of "nature spirits" bound to certain groves, valleys or rivers, fits in well with the strange religious practices of the Nibenay. But classic nymphs ... maybe in High Rock? I don't know, it doesn't feel like it would fit the esthetic.


Let me explain what I mean with this esthetic. I'm going to make a general point here that applies to a large number of these proposals: I don't like the idea of having a lot of "magical" creatures around. Once again, let's look at Morrowind - specifically, the ecology of Morrowind (I know I'm repeating myself, but the way in which Morrowind did stuff like this is what we should aspire to - if only because that is the wall we are hanging our work on): you got your netch, your guar, kagouti, nixhounds, cliff racers, the whole kwama situation.

These creatures are not magical.

The closest you get are the netch, but even they are explained as these floating gas-bags, land-based jellyfish. In essence, they are organic, physical, believable: the dunmer herd them, eat them, have stories and myths about them. There are the broad lines of an ecology here, with smaller creatures, passive herbivores, larger predators, etc. There's even a sense of evolutionary kinship, with creatures like Guar and Kagouti that share attributes. This leads to a suspension of disbelief. Despite Morrowind's reputation for being bizarre and alien, its actual ecology is much more grounded and realistic than most other RPGs, and any encounter with magical or supernatural things (like the undead, the Sixth House, the Dwemer automatons) has an extra impact because we feel that these things are strange and unnatural, even for this world (and also because their presence and strangeness are justified and explainable).

And that's the problem I have with this random mish-mash of enemies that a lot of RPGs, including Oblivion, present you with: you have imps, wisps, ogres and trolls, giant spiders, ... all existing side by side, without any relation or ecological niche (the way Oblivion used ogres, trolls and minotaurs was essentially interchangeable), some of them apparently "magical" (isn't everything inherently magical in this kind of world?) and jumbled together like an encounter table in D&D, or a collage made out of random pages from an encyclopedia of mythology.

[Saint_Jiub]

Here's my last thought on the subject:

When the PGE talks about Morrowind being like another world, that's in relation to Tamriel, not just to us. This isn't Earth, or even necessarily any Earth-adjacent setting; if there's one thing Michael Kirkbride got right, it's that. There should absolutely be a distinction between Cyrodiil's flora/fauna and Morrowind's- however what's familiar and comfortable for the Imperials doesn't necessarily mean that it's totally familiar to us. To a Colovian noble, his kennel of hunting hawkhounds is familiar; to a Nibenean shepherd, his giant newts are familiar. 3-eyed green apes are a well-known nuisance to the Imperials, and if we were to take our wolves and turn them into a weird hybrid of hyena, bat, and red bearded vulture, the same could be said for that. Familiarity is whatever we decide it means, because the Imperials aren't a real-world culture. It should always make sense from a biological and ecological standpoint, but it doesn't need to conform to standard Western fantasy to do that.

[vrolok]

Infragris has a good point and I agree. Spriggans might fill in the niche of Nymphs, it's true. Nymphs could be present and I do feel that they would fit the world, especially Gold Coast, but they are definitely not necessary by any means. Good exception in Morrowind is the Dreugh though. It has very little explanation in game.

As for Saint_Jiub, I personally both agree and disagree at the same time. Yes, it is not Earth and theoretically it could be even more alien than Morrowind, but that kinda wouldn't make sense in terms of the world. Imperial culture is different from ours, but has many similarities. Imperial factions are the ones player can relate to in Morrowind. Imperial soldiers, Imperial clothes, Imperial architecture and gear, it's all familiar to an extent.

So I personally believe that Cyrodiil should be strange, yet somewhat familiar. At least on the outside, it should not be as different from Earth as Morrowind. It should be different on the inside, because of different history and culture, that's true. Some details should also be quite different. I am not opposed to trolls or newts or something else. But still, player needs to feel some sort of connection.

I believe strangeness of Cyrodiil should come from these sources:
1) Very different history of Cyrodiil, compared to Earth
2) Ayleid presence in the region
3) Cyrodiil being cosmopolitan province in the middle, influenced by all other provinces
4) Other factors like flora and fauna being different, etc.

As you can see, there are plenty of reasons why Empire would be pretty strange. Going out of the ways to create even stranger Cyrodiil is not the best option in my opinion. Weird - definitely, just not without good reasons. "Because it can be" is not really a good reason, just my opinion

It is up to you, what exactly to do though. I might be wrong, that's just my 5 cents

[Anumaril]

My opinion is that Cyrodiil should be much different than real life. Morrowind, I see as being alien to the rest of Tamriel due to it's giant insectoid creatures, inhospitable environments, and odd, xenophobic social tendencies. Not to mention they have living gods and a prevalence of Daedric activity unlike anywhere else in Tamriel. Other provinces (Save for Summerset, but they're about as xenophobic as the Dunmer), are in many ways similar and have enjoyed cultural and social exchanges for Eras. Morrowind, however, has only recently (As of Tiber Septim) begun an unprecedented period of foreign involvement.

Tamriel is another world, not subject to the same laws our world has. Due in part to this, I cannot see Tamriel holding such basic, and in my opinion boring, creatures from our own world unless made unique and interesting. Take cats, for example; they are not simply cats, but an intelligent subspecies of Khajiit known as 'Alfiq'. If interesting, unique background can be created for real-world creatures in Tamriel, I have no issue with their inclusion. However, including them for the sake of familiarity I feel is just as bad as making things weird for the sake of weirdness. One reference I'd like to cite is the movie 'Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind', and other Miyazaki films for that matter. It strays completely from conventional creatures and environments, yet it's characters ground you in the unfamiliar world. I strongly feel that this same approach should be taken to Tamriel. This inspires both uniqueness in the land and it's inhabitants as well as higher quality in character interaction, which I see as the most important facet of an RPG anyway.

Herd/Pack Animal Concept and Themes Behind Cyrodiil's Wildlife

To further my point, I'm including this early idea for a Cyrodiilic herd animal to replace conventional real-world ones. Inspired by real-world, yet given a background within the mythology of Tamriel.

This creature is the 'Morihauk' (Or 'Belhak', name is up in the air), a long-haired and horned species of cattle herded for it's meat, milk (and milk-based products), and fur. Not only this, but they're popular as domesticated pack animals and are of great use in plowing and other farm-based duties. As implied, the creature is named after Morihaus, the mythical man-bull sent to Alessia by Kyne (Alternatively, Belharza). These were once a popular form of transportation as well, but this fell out of favor when the more agile horse was introduced and the creatures, believed to be cousin to the Men-Of-Taur, were slaughtered in great number by the Alessians. Their design would be based on the Yak, but with a more unique spin. Long-haired Morihauk would be found in the northern reaches of Cyrodiil and West Colovia, while in lower-lying and warmer regions, they'd often be found shaved.

From what I've managed to google, the best inspiration would be a cross between THIS and THIS, but grown up. Before anyone says this belongs in Skyrim, I'd like to remind everyone of the bull imagery much more popular in Cyrodiil than Skyrim, and the fact that second picture looks very much like MK's art of a young Belharza. (Additionally, for something more monstrous, though I prefer it not to be, and for something less bulky)

When it comes to many of the creatures of Cyrodiil, I'm of the opinion that horns and antlers are the name of the game, as metaphysically speaking, animals would likely have altered form along with the land to suit the new Kings of the Tower (No way the same creatures were living in the jungles of Ald Cyrod); and what was of greater symbolism to them than horns at this period? Especially considering both Al-Esh and Morihaus adorned them.

With this horn and antler theme in mind, I'd like to introduce the concept of antlered wolves (And that wispy tail). Strange, yet familiar, this wolf design is grounded within Tamriel's mythology. (While this design is too elegant, I love the swirling design of the fur, really looks like a creature inspired by the mythic symbolism of mankind)

[vrolok]

True, true. Many good points. Though, you could do spiders or scorpions just as interesting if need be, but I am not pushing it. So long as creature works and suits the world, I believe it is good. The only thing I don't want is for everything to be new and unfamiliar. Personally, I think the only reason to include familiar things is to emphasize the difference with unfamiliar things. My point is this:

If each thing is new and unique, it can be a good thing, but even Morrowind did not go that far. As I keep saying, there is a clear divide of native Morrowind stuff and foreign Imperial. As a player when you first start, you get familiar with the world. More often when not, you will start with Imperial guilds. Maybe not, but you can see these Roman-looking guys around, living in settlements quite like ours, wearing similar clothes and armor. Castles which are very familiar. You see some local stuff, but not too much.

But then you go out and explore and in the wilderness there is almost no sign of Imperial presence. It's all new and alien. And you embrace this new world and all its differences. Now, some might like sticking with Imperials, others just go native in the world. But you have options and contrast between the two.

As I see it and correct me if I'm wrong, lines are not so strictly distinct in Imperial province. While I still believe Imperial culture should appear similar to what we saw in Morrowind, we should be able to learn it from different sides.

Imperial province is more cosmopolitan, especially influenced are the towns near the borders, but also Imperial city is packed of different cultures and races. It's really easy to get lost in all that variety and strangeness. Imperial culture will be shown more specific with Nibenese and Colovian distinction, even further separation on cults, orders, beliefs.

It already is quite a lot for the player. Especially considering the Ayleid strangeness we are going to explore. I just believe that there should some form of normality. Horse carts are still used, not Silt Striders, right?

It's just that there is something more appealing to me in subtle abnormality rather than loud and clear. Morrowind kinda throws you off with it's weirdness, but later on you come to understand it more or less. Netches are kinda cows, Silt Striders are carriages, etc. You get used to it.

It might be against your current plans, so I'll just say what I think could work even better for Cyrodiil, but that's just an opinion, not criticism

I believe that unlike Morrowind, a reverse experience is better here. Players will come after playing Oblivion and with some familiarity with Cyrodiil. They will have their own expectations. And at first, it should appear rather normal. Nothing screaming "You are on a new planet!". But then you start talking to people, exploring the world. Notice many new details, they portray a new picture of the province. That is why familiar creatures will be awesome, because you can show them in new unexpected ways!

So when you arrive, you see a pretty normal country. Granted, less generic than Oblivion did, but relatively familiar. And little by little, you understand that you know very little. The more you learn, the more questions arise. And at the end, you understand that even though the world appears familiar, it's actually even more different in variety of ways from Morrowind.

To me, it seems like such a good theme for Cyrodiil. Things are not what they appear to be. That way of portraying Imperial province is more appealing to me, because it does not repeat Morrowind formula, but instead reverts it, plays around with it. And this idea of appearance not matching the inside works very well with the Empire. Just my thoughts.

And because of that, I don't think every single creature should be new and unfamiliar. Newts and trolls should still be balanced by dogs, horses, wolves, etc.

Think how cool it would be, to lure players in with rather simple things which most player will enjoy, because a lot of people enjoyed Oblivion and Skyrim and then show them how it's done! I believe strangeness of Cyrodiil should be sort of hidden in the deeper corners or behind closed doors. Not just out in the open. Sometimes maybe, just to provoke more critical thinking of the world around. But otherwise, element of surprise is pure gold in my opinion.

Hope I don't bother you guys too much with kinda repeating myself, but I just wanted to let you know some of my ideas. I love ideas for dungeons, since these are kinda hidden in a way. But I enjoy the idea of the world looking rather familiar, just for it to be turned 180 around, when you understand that it's really not the case

[Infragris]

@Anumaril: I like the idea of a yak-like creature for the Jerall and Valus Mountains (I don't think it would work very well in the jungles, though). I like the name Belhak more - not everything needs to refer back to ol' Morihaus. I'm also a fan of the horns/antlers approach. Perhaps we could use that to diversify our wolves and bears ...

@Vrolok: your point has been noted. And in truth, we are working in a way that is very similar to what you are saying: we have "normal" wolves, bear, donkeys and horses, Colovia looks very normal at first glance, etc. The "strangeness" will mostly be focused in the inner Nibenay, and be presented as the old, weird heart of Imperial culture. On the value of such strangeness, we'll have to disagree. I think weirdness for weirdness' sake is its own reward.


I am in favor of including more scrib-sized passive creatures where appropriate. My thoughts:

• Birds: we already have seagulls as a base. Two or three other bird varieties would be good window dressing. These creatures should be non-hostile, though: we don't want to make a new kind of cliff racer.
• Little crabs: another form of beach life would be nice, to break up the monotony of endless mudcrabs. Something small, non-hostile and colorful, like one of these guys.
• Snakes: i don't know why everybody so invested in arachnids. You know what you meet in the jungle? That's right, snakes. Specifically, bright white snakes with a red diamond pattern.
• Small scorpions and spiders: I'm still not sure of these, this time for another reason: it is difficult to portray such small creatures accurately in the engine's low-poly style. In fact, it might be easier to portray them as animated activators instead of interactive creatures.

[Anumaril]

I'm also a fan of the horns/antlers approach

I posted this in the 'Inspiration' thread, but this is ESO's Nedic Armor. If we're to implement ancient Alessian or Nedic designs, I think this should be given some thought. While I'm opposed to the overall design, I do love the antlers and carvings in the armor (Though I'd make them more runic); and assuming in PC's lore, the Crusader's armor looks as it did in Oblivion (Personally wasn't a fan), the obvious attempt at mimicking Pelinal's appearance is a very interesting concept. According to the description of the armor, these are examples only, drawn from the Keptu, Duraki, and Perena Nedic tribes.

Scrib-sized passive creatures

• Birds: I'd like to see some odd avian remnant of Ald-Cyrod unaffected by man's taking of the Tower. Some old eagles the Ayleid may have venerated perhaps. (With suspended corpses of them being found in ruins to further this fact)
• Little Crabs: When I think of possible designs, I can only imagine Oblivion's mudcrabs. They'd look perfect sized down in my opinion, not to mention it'd be an interesting little nod to the game.
• Snakes: So much can be done with these. They have connections to many deities, and I could imagine some humorous superstition about them being spying Tsaesci among commoners.
• Small Scorpions and Spiders: I like the idea of them as activators, perhaps as some new alchemy ingredients for crafting poisons. (I know poisons aren't a thing in Morrowind's alchemy system, but if we could get them working, I think it'd be a worthy addition; what with snakes and other poisonous creatures all about the jungles)

[R-Zero]

My opinion is that Cyrodiil should be much different than real life. Morrowind, I see as being alien to the rest of Tamriel due to it's giant insectoid creatures, inhospitable environments, and odd, xenophobic social
With this horn and antler theme in mind, I'd like to introduce the concept of antlered wolves (And that wispy tail). Strange, yet familiar, this wolf design is grounded within Tamriel's mythology. (While this design is too elegant, I love the swirling design of the fur, really looks like a creature inspired by the mythic symbolism of mankind)

Won't this draw some unneeded parallels to Hircine? His Aspect of Speed was exactly this.

And just to clarify - what's the Project's stance on ESO lore? A legitimate source or a glorified cashgrab fanfiction?

[worsas]

Wolves with antlers: Meh
Dogs with birdheads: Meh

These feel like: Hey, we are cool. We don't need dogs or wolves, we have our badass wolf with antlers, just because. To me they are weird for weirdness sake, even if you have made up a number of excuses for them to exist. Another thing would be an animal growing these features out of an inner logic rather than having these things applied to it from somewhere else (Minotaur, Hagraven, etc are yet another topic, they are no real fauna to me). Here I would like to point to the birdape-design by Revenant, which got this thing right, in my opinion. Even that Yak-animal thing. We have had almost exactly the same idea for Skyrim, it was going to be called Vallagh and I'm sure we are still going to make it one day. At the very least, the creature is already depicted on stone carvings found across Skyrim and eastern Morrowind.

I like the idea of Newts being herded by Nibenese, because they follow an inner logic steming from things already known about Imperials and the Nibenay and they don't feel so overly intended as many things I have read about in this thread (sorry to say it). Spiders are similar there. You have got spiderwebs everywhere in the game and the whole spider reference about Mephala and the Dridrea. It's nothing inserted from somewhere else due to lack of better ideas, it's something that just exists in this universe. By the way, small morrowind creatures are not a real problem, only scaling them up causes major issues, as seen on TRs siltstriders, which should actually be made activators.

I agree with Anumaril, however, that realworld animals shouldn't be used, unless there is good reason to. I welcome unusual ideas when they make the gameworld feel richer and less boring without feeling deliberate and needless. At the moment, many of the animals I hear about are just made up to replace real world ones that already take their niches. I would, myself, find it much better if we looked for different roles given to these creations.

On MK. I would like to compare him with George Lucas. His snowwhale ideas for Skyrim, for example, were a bit too much on the Episode I-III - side of things, imo.

[Ted]

I need Sharkbird mod for Shivering isles! This is amazig idea!

[worsas]

I think I know why I'm so bugged about this discussion here. I think that this whole discussion on creatures
1. is missing some kind of solid foundation. Everyone just tosses in his random ideas. Sorry to say it as harsh as this.
2. is trying to squash the whole matter of unique aesthetic for Cyrodiil into creature design. It all sounds a bit like you guys just wanted another silt strider or another Netch for Cyrodiil, just with a different name and model.

If we had some kind of premise in this whole discussion, which could be summarized by just two or three words. Let's say one of these words were "diversity". Cyrodiils fauna could be very strange just by being extremely diverse and heterogenous (and generally very open and tolerating on differing creature ideas coming), with all kinds of fictive and real-world creatures living side at side. This is just a thought, I had. I know that it somewhat contradicts the things said by me above, but the difference would be some kind of common base on approaching the whole matter.

[Infragris]

You're completely right. This is something I've been struggling with as well, except I couldn't really put it into words. Morrowind has its alien bug/reptilian premise, Skyrim has its prehistorical vibe, Cyrodiil has ... exotica? Bizarro jungle? schizo-mythology? Composite creatures? We lack a theme.

And just to clarify - what's the Project's stance on ESO lore? A legitimate source or a glorified cashgrab fanfiction?

Take what we can use, leave the rest.

[R-Zero]

You're completely right. This is something I've been struggling with as well, except I couldn't really put it into words. Morrowind has its alien bug/reptilian premise, Skyrim has its prehistorical vibe, Cyrodiil has ... exotica? Bizarro jungle? schizo-mythology? Composite creatures? We lack a theme.

I think the main theme would be the same one that is there for all other things - East-West dichotomy. On one hand we have European/Roman-esque Colovia, on the other - exotic oriental Nibenay. The creatures could reflect both clash and union of these two cultures. Classic western animals/creatures, exotic oriental animals/creatures, animals/creatures from one category with alternative spin on them, which brings them closer to other one.

Take what we can use, leave the rest.

I thought you guys would be cautious of it after all this "transcription error" crap they pulled. But I dunno, my heart is with PGE1 and pre-Oblivion lore all the way.

[Anumaril]

You're completely right. This is something I've been struggling with as well, except I couldn't really put it into words. Morrowind has its alien bug/reptilian premise, Skyrim has its prehistorical vibe, Cyrodiil has ... exotica? Bizarro jungle? schizo-mythology? Composite creatures? We lack a theme.

I think it impossible to create one theme for Cyrodiil, considering that it's been influenced by every province and culture out there. Not to mention the entirely different regions of Colovia and Nibenay, combined with the smaller, yet still varied environments of the Metropolitan Imperial Isle, the more mountainous regions along the Jeralls and Valus, the oddities of Blackwood... It's all rather difficult to wrap up under one theme, even for something like creatures. However, for the most part, I imagine an East - West dichotomy as R-Zero said, with Colovia and Nibenay being entirely different regions, and sub-regions holding some unique creatures within them as well. Then we'd obviously have specific enemy types for different dungeons.

My main philosophy is no real-world creatures unless they've been given decent enough reason to be there and made unique either in design or within the lore. Also, when creating anything, we should be able to answer basic questions like "What do they eat?", "Where do they live?", "What's their relationship with civilized races?", etc. All would help is designing a believable ecosystem. Something I don't feel vanilla Morrowind did very well.

Many creatures native to Ald Cyrod I still see being heavily influenced by the culture and symbols of the Nedes, considering what occurred after mankind's taking of the Tower (This might be displayed through runic fur patterns, horns, antlers, etc.). There would certainly be many creatures not native to the land that would have migrated into Cyrodiil for whatever means over the Eras, or not have been affected due to having not been bound to the Tower as much of Ald Cyrod was. These could be anything from a feral breed of Pahmar in the Highlands (Something like mountain lions, but actually identified as Khajiit and with more original of a design) to Land Dreugh.

TL;DR: It's the Heartland, everything and it's mother has been in or nearby it. Each sub-region is likely to be somewhat diverse, with Nibenay and Colovia being entirely different worlds from one another.

[vrolok]

I personally thought that maybe quests should come first, or at least basic ideas for the quest lines and factions. Creatures can probably wait until more details are clear. Right now many ideas are thrown around. I myself am on a fence about real creatures vs. fantasy creatures. Probably would prefer real ones, unless there is a reason for more creative creatures. Nibenay should probably be more creative with its creatures to further emphasize the divide.

Though once again, I think quest lines should come first, or at least faction concepts more flashed out. Once they are decided, it should be easier to decide on the critters. That would allow to make creatures that would complement the world and not the other way around.

What about means of transportation in Cyrodiil?

I would imagine proper horse carriages on the roads, boats, plus mage guides, right? Carriage design and horses could vary by the region.
I also think that while it is totally possible to use some other creature rather than a horse and it would look good, it would also make horses kinda pointless, no? Maybe not, but from I gather in the lore, horses are pretty important in Cyrodiil.

Examples of possible Colovian and Nibenese carriage:
Colovian

Nibenese

[Saint_Jiub]

I think I know why I'm so bugged about this discussion here. I think that this whole discussion on creatures
1. is missing some kind of solid foundation. Everyone just tosses in his random ideas. Sorry to say it as harsh as this.
2. is trying to squash the whole matter of unique aesthetic for Cyrodiil into creature design. It all sounds a bit like you guys just wanted another silt strider or another Netch for Cyrodiil, just with a different name and model.

If we had some kind of premise in this whole discussion, which could be summarized by just two or three words. Let's say one of these words were "diversity". Cyrodiils fauna could be very strange just by being extremely diverse and heterogenous (and generally very open and tolerating on differing creature ideas coming), with all kinds of fictive and real-world creatures living side at side. This is just a thought, I had. I know that it somewhat contradicts the things said by me above, but the difference would be some kind of common base on approaching the whole matter.

You're completely right. This is something I've been struggling with as well, except I couldn't really put it into words. Morrowind has its alien bug/reptilian premise, Skyrim has its prehistorical vibe, Cyrodiil has ... exotica? Bizarro jungle? schizo-mythology? Composite creatures? We lack a theme.

I think my "theme" has been lost in the fact that I've been doing textures for vanilla or resource models and compromising my viewpoints for the sake of producing something for the project, but my idea has always been "birds are at the top of the food chain"- there are mammals, insects, and reptiles in there too, but of the original concepts I've drawn for fauna, over half have been some manner of large bird. The idea being that just like mammals have evolved into all these crazy shapes and sizes in our world, in this environment avians filled that niche- so you have deep jungle hunters with camouflage and poison quills, flightless plains hunters, bipeds, quadripeds, etc, stemming from this avian root.



Perhaps I'm misreading, but I'm kind of surprised to hear this critique here, since I've been pretty transparent about my design approach and I've been posting concepts, and not just of creatures, under the general philosophy of "let's do something we've never seen before", and generally received nothing but positive feedback from all of you. Right now, I'm feeling like if anyone here felt like I was being haphazard in my approach to design, literally *years* ago would have been the time to do it. Or is it just that everyone's been letting me paint in the corner and talk to myself this whole time, and it was never really intended for most of my concepts to make it in?

I also feel like I've been very vocal as far as spreading unique aesthetic and lore into other areas of design; I hand-created an aesthetic for the art of the Imperial Cult that yes, had real-world influences, but was ultimately unique to this project. I fought tooth and nail for beverages that were unique to our setting, instead of just using generic "beer" and "ale" as others wanted to do; I've put as much if not more thought into clothing, arms, and armor than anyone else here, again with the goal of capturing the idea of certain aesthetics but making it unique to our world. I don't feel like I'm just trying to make animals weird for their own sake, I do honestly feel like there's been relative consistency between the things I've done and that they feel like they could be part of the same world.

Eh, maybe I'm just being oversensitive (I am a teensy drunk tonight), I'm sure I'll be over it by morning.