Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Model, texture and sound development of P:C
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Leon
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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by Leon » Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:16 pm

Before it get's out of hand:
Infragris wrote:It looks rather goofy, I'm afraid. I don't really see the use of making them light sources in the first place, if it causes so many problems. Can't the interior designers just plop a lightbulb near them? I think an Ayleid stone-torch or crystal candelabra would make for a good piece of loot, but it would have to be a different item than the Welkynd stone.

I'm afraid I can't check data atm, how are these set up exactly? Unless I'm mistaken, it should be easy to avoid problems of this nature by making the stones lights that disable themselves when activated and add a different, unscripted welkynd stone misc item to the player's inventory. Loot lists should use the second version, so NPCs only receive the non-glow version. This way, the stones still glow initially, stack in the inventory, and they won't accidentally be used as lights. The only downside would be that they don't glow when the player sets them down, but honestly that's a small price to pay.
The best solution is the current setup; unequipable light sources.
Adding a lightbulb near them would not work, because the light would remain even after the player has taken the actual Welkynd stone, which looks weird.
Making the Welkynd stone equipable is a no, looks kinda weird too, imo.

*Leon flies away to holiday land*
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Infragris
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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by Infragris » Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:32 pm

It's radioactive contamination.

EDIT: jk, but how about the second system?

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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by worsas » Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:20 am

This whole thing gives much more headache than it should, but there are downsides to each possible way to handle these ayleid stones:

1. Pure misc items: No technical issues whatsoever, but the stones don't add light to their environment and you have no loss of light on picking them.
2. Solution suggested by Infragris. This would allow the stones to add light to their environment in their initial state, but they are turned into misc items when picked. This would be the best solution, but there is a completely different problem connected to it. This script would test if the welkynd was activated, remove it from the gameworld and add a misc item counterpart to the players inventory. Now what, if anyone else but the player activates the object? Seems like a silly assumption, but just think about this. depending on how it works, the other player would activate the stone and it would be added to the players inventory still. and if openmw would ever modify npcs to be able to do theft and pick items in their environment, there would be the same issue. That's why my mind doesn't like this solution.
3. The current way of working. I thought it was great until yesterday. There are two issues: The item does not stack in players inventory (which as only downside would be ok with me) and it can still be equipped by npcs. If you have an outside trader or a companion who receives the object it is something that will likely happen at nighttime.
4. Allow them to be equipt and adjust the model so there are handles and rotate it for handling. This comes with a goofy look apparently, especially with broad races like orc. Would also require existing instances of the stone to be adjusted in the gameworld. But, as with solution 1, there would be no technical problems associated to this solution.

I would be far less pedantic about this topic, if there was not the Varla Stone, too
[hsimg=]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/223 ... alight.jpg[/hsimg]

To me it feels like a major loss if this object does not illuminate its surroundings when you drop it in your players home.

Apart from that, I don't agree that these cannot serve as manual lightsources. After all that's how they were used by Ayleids aside from their magicka/charge - restoring capabilities, as seen on the Ayleid chandeliers.

Related to welkynd stones:
What is the deal with those welkynds that are embedded in rock? Weren't the welkynds created by the elves rather than mined?

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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by Infragris » Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:58 am

I don't consider the OpenMW compatibility a problem we have to solve: scripts that work like this one are rife throughout the game, and it would be up to the developers of the multiplayer to find solutions for them. If we have to consider multiplayer for every quest and script we'll never get anything done.

Besides, if we assume OpenMW to be the platform in use, we can just ask them to make a light-emitting item that can be picked up, but not equipped. This would be a fairly sensible option for them to add, and sidestep the entire problem.

It would be nice if Varla stones could be used to light up player houses, but I don't consider this functionality important enough to justify these workarounds, which are far more immersion-breaking then the absence of slight glow. If we introduce a specific Ayleid torch/light item, players could use this to light up their homes instead. It would also bring more diversity to Ayleid loot, which is sorely needed.

The Welkynd stones were grown by harvesting light or something. Stones embedded in the rock are wild growths that developed over the centuries from ambient energies. Sort of a magical stalagmite. They were never a part of the original Ayleid architecture, though.

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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by worsas » Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:30 am

While we are at it, we could ask the openmw-people about adding an optional non-beast property to armors. That would solve problems with open helmets that intersect with beast heads, of which we have a few.

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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by Infragris » Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:04 pm

Oh, I have laundry lists of things I hope OpenMW can do. If they could implement a region paint-like functionality to designate provinces, we could vastly simplify our dialogue woes.

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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by berry » Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:58 pm

Sudden realization. How about adding following script to misc/ingredients stones (ie. those added on a pick-up by a script proposed by Infragris)? Wouldn't that do a job?

Code: Select all

Begin script for misc (non light) welkynd/varla

;;;use this item in leveled lists, containers, inventories, dialogues...
;;;use the other one (the glowing one) in a world.

short OnPCDrop
short deleteobj
float deletetimer

If ( OnPCDrop == 1 )
	PlaceAtMe "glowing welkynd/varla" 1 1 1
	Set OnPcDrop to 0 ;that step is probably redundant
	set deleteobj to 1
endif

if ( deleteobj = 1 ) ;Local variable, set when you want to delete 
	if ( deletetimer == 0 ) 
		Disable 
	endif 
	if ( deletetimer < 10 ) 
		set deletetimer to ( deletetimer + 1 ) 
	endif 
 	if ( deletetimer == 10 ) 
		 SetDelete, 1 
 	endif 
Return 
endif 

End script for misc (non light) welkynd/varla
[no fix] OnPCDrop (is local short variable)

Short OnPCDrop
If ( OnPCDrop == 1 )

This variable gets set to one when the PC drops the object. Must be reset manually for multiple use (set OnPCDrop to 0 ). I'm not sure how would that work if player drops multiple copies of these objects stacked up, though. But it seems like a little price at any rate.

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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by worsas » Thu Jul 14, 2016 3:49 pm

After a lot of trickery and with berrys script it works and we are back to where we were previously, except that the player won't have a lightsource in his inventory anymore. The misc item version of the welkynd will not stack either, due to berrys script assigned to it. We need to decide whether we want a welkynd that will no longer emit light when dropped but that stacks in inventory and one that turns into a lightsource again but doesn't stack in inventory... or we create a glocal script that controls welkynds from outside. Regardless of what we're doing, it's a hack in some way.

Code: Select all

Begin PC_Ayl_WelkyndLight

short picked
short updateLighting

if (updateLighting == 1)
	set updateLighting to 2
	enable
endif

if (updateLighting == 0)
	set updateLighting to 1
	disable
endif

if (picked == 2)
	setDelete, 1
endif

if (picked == 1)
	playSound, "Item Misc Up"
	set picked to 2
endif

if (onActivate == 1)
	if (picked == 0)
		set picked to 1
		player->addItem, "PC_Misc_Ayl_WelkydInv_01", 1
		disable
	endif
endif

End PC_Ayl_Welkynd

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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by Infragris » Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:02 pm

I slightly prefer the no-glow version because it feels like it would be less prone to random issues and because I dislike non-stacking items filling up the inventory. But both work for me.

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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by worsas » Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:16 pm

I can definitely understand that. Single stones littering the inventory are a nuisance. I only wished that these seemingly simple things wouldn't be such downboggers. I still remember years ago, when I was working on the first version of the Dragynia-flower :ugeek: . Without exaggeration, I easily ended and started the game 30-50 times before I managed to resolve some, in retrospect probably minor texture issues it had.

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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by Infragris » Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:58 am

Yeah, I remember my first models. Dozens of hours fucking around with UVs, no idea what I was doing. Well, that's the nature of progress I suppose. I feel like, with resolving all these petty issues at the moment, we're finally getting to a solid base from which we can tackle the rest of the province.

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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by berry » Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:30 pm

Personally I'm slighlty leaning towards glowing, non-stackable solution. A fact that Ayleid stones won't stack could be seen as a feature, too, not a bug. They'd be more distinctive that way, like they are minor relics of old days. In Morrowind Ash Statues don't stack as well, and as far as I can remember it's never bothered me; they only felt more unique that way if anything. That being said, both solutions sound good to me.

I thought there might had been a MCP fix making scripted items stack, since it's a problem seen in vanilla game too, but it seems like there isn't a one.

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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by worsas » Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:55 pm

I think I could make the varla stone so that it will turn into a lightsource again, when dropped, but leave the welkynds misc item, so they will stack in inventory. Varla Stones are pretty rare, while you will likely have a couple of welkynds stacking up in your inventory after some time.

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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by R-Zero » Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:14 am

Recently tried to make a Dark Welkynd stone. Seems to be coming together rather nicely:
[hsimg=]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/100 ... elkynd.jpg[/hsimg]

It will be a black crystal with animated red halo, which is done not by using a billboard node, but rather completely different technique. This technique might also be useful for some other Ayleid items, given their fascination with light.
I'm currently working on animating this stone, so that when player enters its attack range it starts to glow white/red, and then momentarily glows even brighter immediately before casting a spell. So far I'm successful.

I will probably also script it myself. Unlike Oblivion Drak Welkynd stones which are impossible to disarm, I'll add an option of turning it off (and maybe harvesting the remains?) upon activation and successful Enchant skill check. Another way to render these harmless I propose would be finding and activating a button or a lever which in turn would lower a sort of lid on the crystal, which would stop its magic projectiles from reaching the Player.

Oblivion Dark Welkynd images: [hsimg=]http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/eld ... 0523221224[/hsimg]
[hsimg=]http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/eld ... 0522184921[/hsimg]
[hsimg=]https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mo ... 363860.jpg[/hsimg]

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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by Infragris » Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:53 am

The red halo effect looks very nice. Will the stones be susceptible to stealth? Ideally, different styles of play (mage, warrior, thief) should all have an option to counter this.

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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by R-Zero » Fri Oct 07, 2016 11:05 am

Infragris wrote:The red halo effect looks very nice. Will the stones be susceptible to stealth? Ideally, different styles of play (mage, warrior, thief) should all have an option to counter this.
Making the crystals be possible to sneak past wouldn't be too hard - I'd just need to include a sneak skill check before the activation. Not sure if this would make sense though - it's more fitting for the detection system of these to be magic-based (Detect Humanoid?) rather than vision/sound-based.

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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by R-Zero » Mon Oct 10, 2016 9:19 am

After dozens of trial-error runs and countless bugs I finally managed to get the basic mechanic working.

All what's left is to implement the deactivation and some eyecandy.

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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by roerich » Mon Oct 10, 2016 9:53 am

Neat! I agree that it should ideally have different methods of countering.

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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by R-Zero » Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:41 am

Thanks!

My take on the thief countering is that it's better left to dungeon design. Where a warrior would have no other way but to rush through and the mage - to use resists ot orther effects, the thief would bypass the dangerous places altogether by unlocking a hidden door or jumping to a high ledge, something like this. While class balancing is important, it shouldn't take away from in-universe "realism".
Plus, these stones are already gimped compared to enemy spellcasters - they are static, predictable and can't aim with extrapolating Player movements. Making these unable to sneak past counterweights this a bit.

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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by Leon » Mon Oct 10, 2016 8:50 pm

Damn, that looks awesome! :D Image
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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by R-Zero » Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:13 pm

Progress report.

After encountering some pitfalls I managed to implement all the intended mechanics for Dark Welkynd stones. Expect another video "soonish" :)
How these stones are so far:

- There are three variants - Fire, Frost and Shock ones. From Glories and Laments by Alexandre Hetrard we know that Ayleids thought of Nirn as being composed from four elements - earth, water, air, and light. Frost corresponds to Water, Shock corresponds to Air and Fire was just a form of Light according to Ayleids. So, I'm considering adding a fourth variant, Poison one, correspoinding to Earth, but I'm not 100% sure. I've named the spells these stones cast "Cey Molag", "Cey Mafre" and "Cey Belle", but sadly I can't find any Ayleidoon word with meaning at least close to Earth.

- Dark Welkynd stones can't be deactivated as is, they can be permanently or temporarely turned off by using some sort of trigger - pushing a button/lever, putting on a piece of equipment or whatever works for you. Essentially, what the trigger has to do is to set each individual stone's local variable "deactivated" to 1. Like this:
T_Ayl_DngRuin_DWelk_mscrcnd_s03 -> set deactivated to 1

- Speaking of the line above, the ID scheme I propose is
T_Ayl_DngRuin_DWelk_[Location]_[Element][Number]
[Location] is limited to 7 characters. So, say, Miscarcand would be "mscrcnd" or something.
[Element] is a single letter. F for Fire, R for fRost, S for Shock.
[Number] is a two-digit number. A single digit would probably be enough, but I just wanted to play it safe.

- Each deactivatable Dark Welkynd stone would need to be a separate object. Sorry, but that's just how it better works with external triggers. Don't worry, you won't need to change the script on the stone itself in the slightest.
If you want to place a stone that Player won't be able to deactivate, just use any of three generic versions:
T_Ayl_DngRuin_DWelk_Generic_F01
T_Ayl_DngRuin_DWelk_Generic_R01
T_Ayl_DngRuin_DWelk_Generic_S01

- When a Dark Welkynd stone is turned off in such fashion, Player can try harvesting it, which requires passing an Enchant skill check. If it's successful, the stone disappears leaving a misc object version of itself behind. If not, the stone activates again, now without a way to turn it off.

- Dark Welkynd stones place their own light sources through script (for the purposes of easier cleanup on harvesting), so you don't need to put any additional ones near them.

I'm terribly sorry if my explanation is wonky. I'm still struggling with English sometimes and I'm sleepy now to boot :D

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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by R-Zero » Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:35 pm

Also, I think I'll post the idea I had on Ayleid furniture in this thread too.
Basically, what I think would be very cool is if Ayleids had all sorts of tall or even suspended stuff. Thin chairs with seats at head height, benches and tables hanging on chains etc. This would add a great visual sense of verticality even with the relatively normal-looking tileset we have, and would also help us make the rooms appear more cluttered than they are. Not to mention with some lights closer to the ceiling this would provide very cool light-shade play and parallax effect.

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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by R-Zero » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:59 pm

Speaking of Welkynd/Varla dropping/lighting/etc, there is another problem with swapping between different object types in/out of inventory - the stolen flags don't carry over! You can steal some collector's stone and it won't be confiscated on arrest.

So I'm thinking, why don't we employ the cleanup method thought up by Greatness7 and implemented in my Nocturnal Moths mod?
Basically, it uses a script on light sources to place moths object near them and then when you pick up the light itself it:
1. Saves the xyz coordinates of the object in 3 global float variables and sets a short global variable to 1
2. The script on the moth object checks if the 4th global is 1 and if yes
3. it checks if the coordinates of the given moth object are the same as the ones stored in 3 globals.
4. If yes, the moth object is disabled and deleted.

We can do the same with misc versions of the stones and the lights they have. Matter of fact, I already use a variation of such a script with my Dark Welkynd stones and the good thing is - we can reuse the same variables and script for ALL the objects we need to cleanup in such a way! Covenient, no? :D
Sure, putting a script on all the stones would mean they won't be stackable anymore, but just like Berry here I don't think that's much of a problem - all the misc objects are at the end of inventory window anyway and can be easily filtered out.

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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by R-Zero » Sat Oct 15, 2016 4:55 pm

Second test video - this time with deactivation and harvesting mechanics:

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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by roerich » Sat Oct 15, 2016 6:26 pm

Incredibly rad.

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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by R-Zero » Sun Oct 16, 2016 2:35 pm

roerich wrote:Incredibly rad.
Thank you! :)

Quick question - would anyone object if I rename Dark Welkynd stones to Loria Stones (darkness stones)? Just so they would actually have their own, not derived name, just like Welkynd and Varla ones.

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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by Luxray » Sun Oct 16, 2016 4:14 pm

That is a really cool thing you've managed to pull of there R-Zero, I love it! These Ayleid ruins will be great to explore with these in.
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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by Infragris » Sun Oct 16, 2016 6:13 pm

Loria Stones sounds good to me.

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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by R-Zero » Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:25 pm

Infragris wrote:Loria Stones sounds good to me.
Cool!
Uploaded the stones to the Data Contribution Thread.

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Re: Ayleid Artifacts, Items, Clothing, and Clutter

Post by worsas » Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:32 pm

I have had an attempt at the boots from Revenants ayleid armor concept. I will work on the other armor pieces, if you think that this is a suitable approach. It's a quite weird design, after all.

[hsimg=]http://66.media.tumblr.com/0541f0b501d8 ... 1_1280.png[/hsimg]
[hsimg=]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/223 ... ttempt.jpg[/hsimg]

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