Armors of Cyrodiil

Model, texture and sound development of P:C
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worsas
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Re: Armors of Cyrodiil

Post by worsas » Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:14 pm

I find it respectable that you have taken the steps of implementing this armor on your own. That aside I don't like where it is at yet, especially the boots and the gauntlets are very visibly made by retexturing an existing model and don't play well with the material they are supposed to be made of.

Also, I can't help about the hard edge between shirt and sleeve that there is with the new shirt mesh. The previous version was more believable there. It might make sense to stick with the gambeson and the greaves and leave the other parts of the armor alone for the time being. A little bit additional stylization on your armor would be in order: Belts, seams, brackets, stuts, little pockets, etc. Not much. Just a little bit, so the piece feels more at-home in the artstyle of this game.

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R-Zero
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Post by R-Zero » Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:44 pm

I think the gambeson implementation could benefit from using the NioLiv models Saint Jiub mentioned, instead of using the vanilla models. The texture layout even seems pretty compatible. I would also advise against using the same texture for multiple armor pieces unless it's cleverly disguised - it makes the set look flat.
Also, maybe making it more colorful could work better? Cool thing about gambesons is that they double as a totally sick clothing piece, so I doubt classy Imperials would miss the opportunity.

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vrolok
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Post by vrolok » Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:55 pm

Also, maybe making it more colorful could work better? Cool thing about gambesons is that they double as a totally sick clothing piece, so I doubt classy Imperials would miss the opportunity.
Yes, I know, there are great opportunities to make some truly interesting designs. Sadly, they are limited by my poor abilities :oops: I am only using one texture which I found as a mod resource for a different game and I kinda suck at using it. I just really wish to see padded armor in game, so I am trying to implement it on my own. Though I do appreciate any help, even advice can come in handy.

What is this NioLiv model you are talking about, for example? I really don't know one. Or maybe I do, but I don't know what it's called :roll:

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R-Zero
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Post by R-Zero » Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:04 pm

Saint Jiub posted the link earlier in this thread:
viewtopic.php?p=5231#p5231
These are meshes designed to use with BB-compatible clothes, but they can be used to make some nice armor too. I just tried to use it together with the textures you posted and it fits with minimal UV adjustment:
[hsimg=]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/100 ... s/gamb.png[/hsimg]
(ignore the bottom of the mesh, it can be just cut off)

So this can work.

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vrolok
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Post by vrolok » Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:29 pm

Already looks so much better, my god! :o I will try doing it myself, though I am not sure I will be able to handle it properly. Like cutting off the bottom of the mesh sounds quite hard to do, unless it's as easy as simply removing the block in nifskope of which I am doubtful.

Maybe you could help me a bit in fulfilling the dream of a proper gambeson, if I am not asking for much? I hate to bother someone with a request, but it truly is not my area of expertise, I am more of interior builder around here, only able of basic texture cuts and slight UV adjustments, not really able to do much more than that and the quality suffers from it, which is sad. Don't want to force you to do it, though. I seem to be the most interested person in such an armor on the forum, so it really is not on the hot list of priorities for the project. I myself would be more than satisfied with just the cuirass.

I am okay with helmet and greaves as they are, pauldrons I can probably do, gauntlets and boots can be just ignored, they are not really needed. But the cuirass is just "meh" at the moment (mine). Just let me know what you think and if not, then I will try experimenting myself a bit, no worries ;)

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R-Zero
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Post by R-Zero » Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:02 pm

It's all kinda basic stuff, but I can understand you getting baffled by it :) it always seems this way at first. I myself didn't edit the geometry directly for years, before trying it out last year.
I'll look into it in my free time, but it would be much better if you tried to learn this stuff too, because, as somebody said, "nobody can make the mod of your dreams except yourself".

What I think needs to be discussed more is where to put this kind of armor exactly. It always becomes a bit of a problem when people start implementing stuff for the sake of implementing it (I think you wouldn't disagree that the idea of adding gambesons didn't come from the need for a particular armor set for gameplay reasons, or from it being mentioned in lore etc.). I'm not saying it's bad by itself, but we need to be double careful on this one.

My personal thoughts about this style of armor is that its presence is indicative of a gritty setting, like Dark Souls and Game of Thrones for example. Or alternatively, a historically accurate one. It so happens that Elder Scrolls isn't both, so fitting it in can be tricky. Moreover, the current design of Cyrodiilic armor in the project has some very strong classical vibes, with Corinthian helmets and stuff. This set on the other hand, is more like a late medieval one.

That said there must be ways to implement it, maybe as a part of some specific set (like how Heavy Leather Boots in the vanilla Morrowind are a part of an "Imperial Archer" set). Something for the northern regions, maybe? An orcish light armor? Maybe it will become more apparent when the work on this region starts.
And I must say it gives me some High Rock vibes too, and ties with its lore well too - Bretons are described to have a tendency to randomly just go adventuring outta nowhere, both nobles and peasants, thus cheap easy to manufacture armor must be very popular there.

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Post by vrolok » Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:28 pm

I myself was thinking about having it a common armor around Tamriel, potentially coming from High Rock, but getting popular around other provinces as well. I admit, it is not Cyrodiilic enough in itself, though with a different texture, it might become much more Colovian. Maybe have few regional versions later down the road.

But such basic armor could easily be utilized by various bandits, mercenaries and adventurers. It is simple to produce, cheap and effective. Basically, it only requires cotton or something similar to it to be produced. So yeah, while not native to Cyrodiil in style, it still could be very popular for its effectiveness and price. As it is, I could see it being used almost everywhere, but only by people who can't afford better gear. And once again, if I had resources, I would love to see few versions around Tamriel (Studded Colovian Gambeson, Striped Nordic Aketon, etc.).

[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/8PgMCo1.jpg[/hsimg][hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/CjZD6Cc.png[/hsimg]

In my opinion it is always a very nice touch in games when a bit of realism is paid to armor design. We can always offset it by having many other unique pieces like Ayleid gear, for example.

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Post by Saint_Jiub » Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:23 pm

I see no problem with it being a Cyrodiilic piece - as noted previously, quilted and padded undergarments show up in multiple Imperial sets. It fits in well enough with the Polish/Slavic influences we've been discussing.

My opinion is that it should just be the cuirass by itself, or cuirass and greaves at the most. Different shirts/pauldrons equipped with it will give it the visual diversity it needs, plus whatever texture variants we decide on. Trying to make a full armor set out of it is just going to look dorky, IMO. At the end of the day, we're talking about a bulky, shapeless beige tube- equipping the full set would make the player look like the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man:
[hsimg=]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ow-man.jpg[/hsimg]

Anyway, here's my finalized chainmail armor- worsas, I left the texture at 2048x1024 just to make some of the detail easier to see for you- I'll compress it down after you're done with the modelling. Thanks for your help :)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2p8925l5gka8u ... l.zip?dl=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/cARpnHI.png[/hsimg]

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vrolok
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Post by vrolok » Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:30 pm

Wow! The texture is really awesome on this cuirass! I can truly appreciate the work now :D Looks really good.

On the note of padded armor, I myself agree that full set is not necessary. Pauldrons are sorta needed, just to make the look complete, but gauntlets, boots do look dorky. And I am glad that you also think it could fit in, I was afraid I was in complete minority on this one :P As long as it doesn't look too noble and knightly, it should fit quite well.

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Infragris
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Post by Infragris » Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:31 pm

It could definitely fit in: as others have said, this kind of armor would be a good fit for urban Imperial settings. I'm wondering it it could be "Imperialized" further by perhaps editing the texture colors: making the undercloth a little brighter, maybe, or coloring half of the vertical lines red, similar to that Witcher pic.

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Post by vrolok » Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:55 pm

It could definitely fit in: as others have said, this kind of armor would be a good fit for urban Imperial settings. I'm wondering it it could be "Imperialized" further by perhaps editing the texture colors: making the undercloth a little brighter, maybe, or coloring half of the vertical lines red, similar to that Witcher pic.
Yeah, a lot could really be done and I do think that there is a niche for cheaper and more common stuff, which wouldn't be simply leather or fur. I will practice some more in my spare time and also look for different textures. Or maybe somebody could help me in my endeavour ;) Though, only if you are really interested and want to do it. Every little bit helps in making gambeson a reality! After we have one ready, it shouldn't be too hard to do few different textures for different regions.

I've actually loaded the Test cell in game and took a look at the armors in the mod. I must admit, they are pretty sweet to say the least. I am impressed by the work done. Overall style is pretty cool as well. It might need a few edits, here and there, but overall these are still very good pieces! :D

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Post by Infragris » Thu Apr 14, 2016 11:25 pm

I'd love to help. Can you post your WIP files?

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vrolok
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Post by vrolok » Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:40 am

I'd love to help. Can you post your WIP files?
Sure thing :D I have already posted the texture, which I have taken from Mount and Blade modders' resource by Narf of Picklestink (Nexus, has permission for game conversion), but I will upload it again for your convenience. I am also attaching my WIP files, though I don't really encourage using them, because I kinda butchered the texture (not really expert at it). I also used combination of Vanilla Meshes, Better Armor mod meshes and hood mesh from Chainmail merchant mod.

If you have experience in it, you can probably do much more with the real texture instead. Saint_Jiub did recommend these meshes and I think they might be useful here: http://mw.modhistory.com/download-21-5497

You can use coif from this mod as a helmet, it looks rather good in my opinion: http://mw.modhistory.com/download-56-9009
Though you don't need to do a helmet, I would be appreciative of just the cuirass and maybe fitting pauldrons, though not necessarily.

As for other armor parts, only do something you think would look good and you feel like doing. It doesn't need to be a whole set as we discussed here.
It would be a good basis for some simple and useful common armor. Later, we can think of more interesting retextures for different regions, I think.

I really appreciate all the help on this one, guys! And you, Infragris :)
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VrolokPaddedArmor.rar
My WIP files (probably not very useful)
(860.13 KiB) Downloaded 109 times
gambeson.rar
Original texture (better quality)
(1.12 MiB) Downloaded 116 times

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Post by worsas » Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:54 am

Anyway, here's my finalized chainmail armor- worsas, I left the texture at 2048x1024 just to make some of the detail easier to see for you- I'll compress it down after you're done with the modelling. Thanks for your help :)
Got it.

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Post by Saint_Jiub » Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:10 am

I have another idea to run by y'all:

As I mentioned, I'm not really happy with the iron/steel armor I made previously- they're going to be rendered obselete by the current armor concepts, and the iron is too flashy for a generic set anyhow. I also have a problem with the new guard armor- as I mentioned, I want them to have similar silhouettes, but per the discussion in the Redguard armor thread, we are going with a Roman helm for the Gold Coast.

THEREFORE,

What I'd like to do is cannibalize the steel and iron helms from those sets and use them with the new Highland and West Weald guard armors, respectively. This unifies the three Colovian styles again and allows me to save the one part of those armors that I was ever particularly happy with; it also reduces our workload in terms of new models.

[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/1S7vj1d.png[/hsimg]

Again, imagine the relevant texture changes, like adding the Imperial crest to the brow of the helmets.

EDIT: For reference, the currently agreed upon Gold Coast helm/cuirass:

[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/EwvIRtm.png[/hsimg]

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Post by worsas » Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:49 pm

It sounds all good to me. Regarding the steel- and iron-armor, I guess that creating a different helm for these would already do it? The colovian highland helmet or the iron- and the skingrad helmet for the steel armor? The other helmets could follow later.

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Post by worsas » Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:02 pm

The sleeves were so long that they now occupy the whole arm up to the wrist. Either you add them to the pauldron or you make them bracers. Though, I suggest not doing that, as they are not really protective the way they are.

I extruded geometry to make the plates and the belt more plastic. I hope you like it.
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Post by Saint_Jiub » Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:58 pm

Perfect, thanks for doing that :)

[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/Erjp6uf.png[/hsimg]

Early WIP on the West Weald armor, once again just with some of the major shapes blocked out.

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Post by vrolok » Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:01 am

Personally, I am kinda torn on the idea of using these helmets for other guards.

On one hand, it does unify the region a bit more, which is a good thing, but I believe that a little bit of diversity within Colovia wouldn't hurt I think. Well, you could see my opinion on West Colovia and East Colovia fashion in the concept art section and I will further elaborate my points in the discussion section later on, on what I think could be done and why it would be good. So, the unification is not my primary concern. Another thing is that it will reduce the work load, which I personally think is very important, so it's up to you to decide how much you can actually do and I do not push you to do more than you want to.

On the other hand, there is a good opportunity for some more regional difference, which wouldn't feel out of place. The masked chainmail helmets will most likely feel at home in this region, like nowhere else in Cyrodiil (not the face mask, but chainmail). You could use the redguard chainmail model as a base, so it shouldn't be too hard to do, at least I hope.

[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/s0DzgLr.jpg[/hsimg][hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/h67JQMA.jpg[/hsimg]

As for previously done sets, I believe that we can find a use for them, but the helmets don't need the plummage, it feels out of place on them. As such, without the plummage, the helmets will be quite common in Colovia I think, so there is nothing wrong with the design IMO.

Hope I am not asking much, just voicing my opinion. The helmets are good, but I think we could probably use something else in the Eastern Colovia. These chaimail helmets do not really fit Skyrim in my opinion, but they have Nordic vibe, so they can further telegraph Nordic influence on the Colovian Region

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Post by Saint_Jiub » Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:35 am

Plumage is the easiest way to implement the color variants you were talking about for different counties. The plumed Greek/Roman helms create a more obvious visual marker for the player as far as "oh, that person is a guard" and references the Romanesque influences of the Legion without blatantly using the same meshes. Additionally, by mixing the Slavic and Roman influences, we get something more distinct visually than if we stick to one reference point per set.

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Post by vrolok » Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:01 am

I kinda agree on most of these points, though we are leaving unused another great design. I am not opposed to the idea, technically, I am just not sure about it. I don't think it's a bad idea, I am just not sure if it's the best one :P Maybe we can use the chainmail masks in more northern regions, like Bruma. Though still, I really get a strong vibe of slightly different design for Skingrad and Chorrol.

Don't know what to think. Logically, I agree with you. Visually, I would probably prefer different helmets, but that's only my personal taste and feeling :)

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Post by Saint_Jiub » Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:06 am

I understand that you personally would prefer something different. In this particular case, this is the design that I am moving forward with. There will be plenty of opportunities for something more like what you're talking about in other areas (heck, our steel armors already have some similar helmet shapes if you look at Kvatch and Skingrad).

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Post by vrolok » Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:21 am

Let's see what it will be like in the game and then decide. I might be worried that it's potentially overusing the legion design a bit too much for my liking (in regard to the guards, not the world), but I can't be sure about it until I see it in game. If you feel that it would be the right choice, then go for it. We can at least try and if not, later change it, since it does not require too much additional work. That's what I think

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Post by Saint_Jiub » Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:54 am

I'm sorry, but I have no intentions of revisiting this armor once the textures are complete.

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Post by vrolok » Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:59 am

I really am not suggesting anything, I am pretty sure that you and some older members can decide on the design better than I can. I just think that if we later discover that it doesn't work in game, we could potentially switch it. I am not implying that it wouldn't or that we would need to do it, but it is always an option.

As for your opinion on the issue, I highly respect it and do not ask of anything. Do your thing, I will do my thing and we can always discuss stuff, though each of us is entitled to his own point of view.

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Post by Saint_Jiub » Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:02 am

Update 2 before I go to bed:

[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/GsTxkRV.png[/hsimg]

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vrolok
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Post by vrolok » Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:18 am

It actually does look pretty good, so maybe I am worried for nothing :) Good job on the armor!

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Post by worsas » Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:28 am

Vrolok, I assume that we will use that chainmail helmet for the colovians anyway. But right now I'm not sure what sets there should be now and what helm will go where. Things are getting shuffled around a little bit at the minute, as you see.

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Post by Infragris » Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:35 am

So, what will these guard armor sets formally be known as? I'd rather not call them "Guard" armor for the reasons I mentioned before (usability, similar to Bonemold-clad guards in Morrowind).

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Post by R-Zero » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:22 am

Infragris wrote:So, what will these guard armor sets formally be known as? I'd rather not call them "Guard" armor for the reasons I mentioned before (usability, similar to Bonemold-clad guards in Morrowind).
armor styles wrote:The heavy armor styles, called 'Legion' or 'knight' style in the West and 'ebony' style in the East, require great strength and endurance. The light armor styles, called 'militia' in the West and 'Ashlander' in the East, favor speed and agility. The medium armor styles, called 'Imperial guard' in the West and 'Great House' in the East, are compromises between the heavy and light styles, balancing protection against mobility. A few less common exotic armor types are also found in Morrowind.
To add more fluff and distinction, synonyms to "guard" can be used. "Anvil Garrison Chain Armor", "Kvatchi Militia Chain Armor" or something like that.

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