Aldkarth Lowlands|Vorndgad Forest (Sky_xRe_20) [berry]

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worsas
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Aldkarth Lowlands|Vorndgad Forest (Sky_xRe_20) [berry]

Post by worsas » Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:50 pm

This claim is about updating the area labelled 20 on this overview map:
[hsimg=]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/223 ... claims.jpg[/hsimg]

Please work with Yetis latest file of Karthwasten and Vorndgad Forest aswell as Berrys finished exterior claim of the Druadach Highlands.

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Post by berry » Thu May 12, 2016 11:31 am

Claim!

Have we settled on the way in which we want to detail this large empty hill in this claim? I'm not actually sure anymore adding more nordic ruins to this region is reasonable, especially since we want a barrow in the canyon in #21. Maybe just another bent cliff. Ah, and there's this little Reachmen camp you want me to add here too, right?

Should I be adding the interiors Luxray reviewed/the interiors of Karthgad area to their proper shells (in the cases when they're settled, that is), too?

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Post by roerich » Thu May 12, 2016 12:15 pm

I still support a small, nomadic Reachman camp in this area. Perhaps just a hut and a shelter. There could be a scripted attack by Bear Clan members when the player is near the camp.

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Post by worsas » Thu May 12, 2016 4:03 pm

yes, a small reachmen camp with maybe two huts, would be welcomed. Nothing too big and fancy.

I don't know if you need to edit the rocky hill. Probably you can just aswell leave it alone. There is a cave on top of it, after all.

It would be good, if you added a big rockgroup to the center of the currently empty area in the northeast, in order to create some subdivision and for continuity with the rest of the region. The reachmen camp should also be found in this area.

I agree, we don't need a further barrow. There is going to be another one in the canyon further east anyway.

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Post by berry » Fri May 13, 2016 7:42 pm

Update. That's halfway finished now, I'd say. All scenery improvements are done, the camp is placed (needs further detailing still), together with it's finished interior. The coolest thing is this scripted Nords attack I did. I'm quite excited I managed to pull that off, to be honest, and I'd really appreciate feedback on it. The cell with this encounter is -102, 8, it's just past Karthgad's ford if you continue going south into the forest, so coc-ing to Karthgad is recommended.
worsas wrote:I agree, we don't need a further barrow.
Well... :P It's only one pillar, though, it would be easy to get it removed. I like the landmarkish look of it, myself, but I'd be fine with seeing this go.

I'm not renaiming the plugin, for a convenience sake.
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Post by berry » Sat May 14, 2016 8:33 am

I edited the post above, uploading a slightly updated file, with finished encampment. And here are some screens to tease you guys: :P

[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/eH27HHk.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/MBqOniN.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/oPkzMnN.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/RGGGPbO.png[/hsimg]
[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/1ubPUEZ.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/JOq8tHT.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/psoa3cR.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/qDot2PL.png[/hsimg]

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Post by worsas » Sat May 14, 2016 3:07 pm

From within the Cs it looks all nice. I like how you decorated the leafy cave entrance north of Karthwasten. The reachmen camp looks good.

The equipment of the two fighting parties seems a tad too mixed. The berserker helmet should be saved for more important/powerful characters. Why shouldn't the reachmen use their cultural equipment (reachmen weapons, wormmouth armor)? Have you ever seen ashlander bandits fighting with something else but chitin weapons? There can be some exception, but for the most part they should be using their own stuff.

On the bird sculpture: I don't know if such an often occuring element should be turned into a massive landscape feature. I'd rather remove it.

Can you still replace most instances of Tx_Skyrim_Rocky_Dirt_04 with Tx_Skyrim_Rocky_Dirt_07?

I have two requests for this claim that exceed its boundaries:
- Can you edit the horizontal road at the very northern border of the claim, so there isn't this empty, plain strip of dirt anymore?
- Can you add a little bit more clutter to this area of karthgad?
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Post by berry » Sat May 14, 2016 7:30 pm

Sure, no problem, I'll get this done. I've been leaving this road aside for a while, because giving it more comprehensive lifting would require cutting more cells from exterior file, and I want to avoid messing with it. But this part? Sure.

As for the Reachmen, I was under false impression that wourmmouth/reachmen stuff is in par with orcish arms, stats and value-wise, and it would result in some easy money for a player, as the odds are currently set the way it's just impossible for Reachmen to win this battle. But now I see it's not the case, I'll equip them with these items. I didn't want to give this too much thinking as well, as it falls to Yeti's department, and I just wanted to see if I could get the mechanism for this encounter done.

I see your point about the pillar. It's already too repetitive, and we don't have anything else to use here instead of it. It will go.

---

Another idea for the river: few floating (activators) leafy logs? Yes/no? Those felt great in abot's Water Life imho.

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Post by roerich » Sat May 14, 2016 7:46 pm

It would be fun if this was an equal fight, or some of the gear could be randomized in order to make it random who wins. The survivors will each have different value depending on who wins.

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Post by berry » Sun May 15, 2016 2:36 pm

Well, I tweaked it a little (modified some stats and equipment, brought the third Reachman back to life) and now it's an even fight - on one load I had Nords winning this skirmish, losing one man, and on another - Reachmen won, without any casualties.

Would anyone have time to check this in-game, anytime soon? Sorry if I'm too pushy about it. :P

This claim is now finished.
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Post by Moritius » Sun May 15, 2016 4:34 pm

I will try it asap (in next 3 hours).
So, that's mean we have those important claims (11+20) finished (in review process)? That's cool, I want to see open alpha :P.
Also that's mean I need to finish my exerior showcase asap to work with someclaims for SHotN/P:C :D.
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Post by worsas » Mon May 16, 2016 1:44 pm

Great work on this all, berry. The new clutter in karthgad is perfect, just the kind of thing I've been hoping for. Reachmen camp and landscape additions/changes are all great.

What about that terrain seam at the northeastern border of the claim? Do you want to close it yet or should it be left for #12?
And.. one last detail: It would be good to have interruption in the long railing following the horizontal road at the northern claimborder. As long as people don't know they can just pass through them, it will keep them from exploring the area south of it. The railings should be generally thinned out a bit.

What does everyone think about adding back the town banner to karthgad? I've removed it to get rid of a bad precedent, but on the other hand, I was probably being too picky about it.

Can you still replace the 70+ AR ringmail armor from the one nord? That armor is a skaal thing and probably forged from ebony anyway, which none of the nords here have.

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Post by berry » Mon May 16, 2016 2:39 pm

Moritius wrote:I will try it asap (in next 3 hours).
So, that's mean we have those important claims (11+20) finished (in review process)? That's cool, I want to see open alpha :P.
Also that's mean I need to finish my exerior showcase asap to work with someclaims for SHotN/P:C :D.
Great, I'm looking forward to hearing your observations! Thanks, man. To be fair, we've had this claims finished/reclaimed/under reviewing/finished too many times already over this past year. :? It's good we are moving forward. And hey, I wouldn't really worry about unclaimed landmasses running dry :lol: at any rate, I'd love to check your showcase when you're done with it.

Thanks, Worsas. I think any further adjustments to this road shoul wait for claim #12, I'm generally wary of making thoroughgoing changes to border cells. I thought the same thing about the armour last night, only even currently, with this OP armour, Nord group gets outmatched most of the time. Ugh... balancing this encounter is a pain in the neck. :P edit: but the Skaal cuirass is a goner, to make it clear

I'd say let's have the banner back, given the Bears with their fascist attitude it would make sense for it to proudly wave at the gates, in Reachmen's faces.

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Post by roerich » Tue May 17, 2016 8:35 am

I want the banner back as well, I was never really that dissatisfied with it. It also works to undermine that the Bear Clan aren't the only ones living in Karthgad, and that the Thane is theoretically the one in power.

Looking forward to check out these changes when I'm able to!

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Post by berry » Tue May 17, 2016 2:59 pm

And I'm looking forward to hearing your feedback!

By the way, I was probably a little hasty with declaring this finished, so let's keep this in claimed for few more days, please. I realised I didn't even get to fixing/finishing Karthwasten docks :D and found many errors in whole forest along the way. I'll be addressing these in following days.

Worsas, do you think that dock tilesets with upcoming new textures would work well with Redguard tileset? I was thinking about employing these for Karthwasten port.

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Post by worsas » Tue May 17, 2016 3:15 pm

I haven't yet looked into new wood textures, but I can say that they will go a bit more into a green-grayish tone opposed to the current reddish.

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Post by berry » Tue May 17, 2016 3:23 pm

Ah, I assumed you have, because of that "poor" boat you were showing with new textures. My mistake.

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Post by berry » Wed May 25, 2016 1:59 pm

Update! Still not quite finished, but we are getting there. I haven't touched most bugs at all and I foremostly worked on the river. This time I was very cautious and changes are mostly very subtle. Most radical treatment was given to the bridge and Karthwasten docks.

1. I lifted the bridge, so now it's undoubtful that ships can pass beneath it. I thought it would be extremly wasteful to redo the landscape here again, so now there are upscaled Markarth stairs leading to it from road level.They don't look that bad, in my opinion, but maybe a retexture (to Skaal textures) might be due? At any rate, it would still be less unresourceful than trying to adjust the landscape here, I think.

2. I mostly finished the docks, 'roerichsizing' the way they are designed :P the idea I wanted to show here is not only those are docks of big market city, but also how spoiled Nord aristocrats of Karthwasten import here lots of luxury goods. I like how grand these docks together with that new bridge look like. Feels proper now for the biggest town in the Reach.

3. I wouldn't be myself had I let such opportunity to make an "exterior cave" slip. :P It's nothing big, though, but I still fit in a little, kinda sad, backstory for it. Search for Sky_karthwasten_docks_note in Book section to learn about it.

[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/UIS6TRq.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/xQOBtTF.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/E2rD37C.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/hInJrEG.png[/hsimg]

4. Added vanilla water light bulbs around the river, and in Cejovo grotto as well. The grotto is accessible now from the exterior too. By the way, that other grotto found it's final place (I hope) under the bridge. Scamp's grotto is supposedly still behind the waterfall.

5. added some new discreet shipwrecks to cells: -104, 9; -103, 8; -101, 11.

6. rejoined with exterior all public buildings in Karthgad. I also fiddled with a concept of rentable bed in Vendibles Down the Bjoulsae store, that could work with scripts disabling an owned bed for the time of renting, and placing unowned bed in it's place. Change I made in this cell is only the slightest (no scripts or dialogues etc), and I can return it to it's previous state

Bonus - a screenshot presenting the view, that the players would see after getting off the ship to Skyrim, taking first steps within our mod. I sincerely wish them they'll have better weather conditions than I did, though :P

[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/8waRvjE.png[/hsimg]

Looking forward to hearing your opinions. Enjoy!
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Post by roerich » Wed May 25, 2016 9:51 pm

Time to check this out! In the vein of delivering brutally honest critique, I will pour out my heart and soul here. I hope I'm not being too harsh though, and it's okay to tell me so if I am.

- Dock is looking great. Your roerichsizing has been a great succes. I will report to the dockmaster of Markarth that he should consider patenting his design.

- Dock clutter is mostly great, a lot of good detailing. The planks and containers are just the stuff I like to see at location like this, as well as the finer detailing with cleats and fishing equipment.

- Shipwrecks are always nice. Even more so when there's loot to be found. You fixed the bleeding one I was moaning about earlier to perfection, though it still looks a little weird how it hasn't broken in two.

- I'm not really fond of the pyre near Karthgad. What's the purpose? Why is it lit? Worsas will have to weigh in on that. You could replace it with a watchpoint.

- Nice job on the Karthgad clutter. Man, this village kicks ass.

- I'm glad that you continued with the theme of barrow-chörtens. In general I think the Nords are good with some Tibetan influence, especially when we're getting nearer High Hrothgar. (Also holy fuck I hadn't seen the waterfall before)

- The fords are still great looking. I think I'll adapt the style for the one near Markarth, I think mine looks like crap

- The stairs leading up to the bridge would exclude carts and wagons from using that road. I've painstakingly had to alter the roads of Markarth in order to accomodate these wheeled menaces (what's wrong with walking, you lazy merchants?), so I'd like to see the same here. I'd rather only small, mastless boats can pass the river than wagons not being able to. Other than that I'l give you that it looks great with the stairs.

- The dock-overhang building looks very moddy to me. It is way too ornamented for a dock building, with roses, ivy and tapestries. I also don't think we should use such easily recognizable Reachmen assets as the rug in a non-Reachman setting. The interior wooden screens makes it looks too rich as well. How about makeshifting something out of Sky_Ex_Redguard_Planks_01, beams and the thatched roof? Alternatively you could replace it with a Sky_Ex_Redguard_House_04 acting as storage and docking office. It would work to tie it together with Karthwasten visually, acting as a small satellite piece of the city. The clutter which you've placed could be transferred to the interior.

- I don't like Nord_Up being used randomly, even if there's an explanation behind it. I suppose this is furniture being delivered to some rich jackass, but it still looks wrong to me. I think we should limit all upper-class items and statics to the interiors we expect them seen. Making them too common would remove the novelty of being in a really rich setting. I actually don't want to see the set used in places other than rich interiors and their immediate exteriors, like balconies. You could replace them with Mid or Low, but in general I'd rather see stuff like logs and goods like that. I see carpenters as working locally, travelling around for work if needed to. I doubt the furniture shipping business is that active in Skyrim.

- In general I think we should be stricter with style-mixing - it often makes sense from an ingame point of view, it's a way to be creative.. but it often ends up looking moddy. There's other dock clutter which stands out a bit - the silverware, the Dunmer urn, the anvil.. We should remember that this isn't a bustling port with wares from all over Tamriel. It's mostly for transporting wares between Karthwasten and Markarth/Haafingar using river barges or smaller longboats, and I don't think the nobles would import many luxuries from there, but rather from caravans from the south and west. I also think that there's a bit too much clutter in general here, compared to other exterior locations.

- I would remove one of each ship type. Right now this river docking station has the same number of ships as the Markarth docks (which are located closer to the ocean, and the wider mouth of the Karth), even more if you count rowboats. The number of ships should reflect the size and traffic in order to keep consistency.


That's my comments, I'm sorry if it was a bit too much on the negative side. :? Hopefully it's more useful than discouraging. I haven't had time to check out the entire claim, so I mostly focused on the docks. As always I think your exteriors are filled with absolutely great and creative stuff, and I have a hard time commenting on all the good stuff because I think nothing should be changed there. :P In general I want to say that these do-overs you're doing are kickass and very fun to explore, and like worsas has said, I think you're great at telling stories with your exteriors.

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Post by worsas » Thu May 26, 2016 8:39 am

- I'm not really fond of the pyre near Karthgad. What's the purpose? Why is it lit? Worsas will have to weigh in on that. You could replace it with a watchpoint.
I had mixed feelings about it myself. I thought it played together with the self-entitlement of the bear clan as border watches, but in that vein, a little watchpoint might be a better fit. But it shouldn't be a dominant landscape feature.
- The fords are still great looking. I think I'll adapt the style for the one near Markarth, I think mine looks like crap
As long as you save the ferry, I'm with you on that.


Berry, before I forget it: You need to look for your custom objects. They always need to start with _Sky. That is the inherited naming pattern, at least. We'd actually do well with changing it for a proper naming scheme at some point.

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Post by berry » Fri May 27, 2016 7:53 pm

Thanks for feedback! And don't worry, in my reception your post was very positive, actually. :P
- The fords are still great looking. I think I'll adapt the style for the one near Markarth, I think mine looks like crap
I agree with Worsas, just don't strip us of the ferry. Even if that's not supposed to offer a transport service it's a great feature.
- The stairs leading up to the bridge would exclude carts and wagons from using that road. I've painstakingly had to alter the roads of Markarth in order to accomodate these wheeled menaces (what's wrong with walking, you lazy merchants?), so I'd like to see the same here. I'd rather only small, mastless boats can pass the river than wagons not being able to. Other than that I'l give you that it looks great with the stairs.
Point painfully taken. :x :) I hope I'll be able to employ some rocks here, and making this road won't be that demanding.
- The dock-overhang building looks very moddy to me. It is way too ornamented for a dock building, with roses, ivy and tapestries. I also don't think we should use such easily recognizable Reachmen assets as the rug in a non-Reachman setting. The interior wooden screens makes it looks too rich as well. How about makeshifting something out of Sky_Ex_Redguard_Planks_01, beams and the thatched roof? Alternatively you could replace it with a Sky_Ex_Redguard_House_04 acting as storage and docking office. It would work to tie it together with Karthwasten visually, acting as a small satellite piece of the city. The clutter which you've placed could be transferred to the interior.
I'll see about the planks, that could work well. The problem with a satellite house would be that these docks are hollow underneath, and I'd rather we didn't get rid of that "cave" I did there.

I think I should wait with making a definitive version of the docks for a data merge/update. There is at least one new good I'm eagerly waiting for - a wasabi, namely - and some others could work here too. But I agree this port shouldn't be that bustling and exotic, I'll try to tone this down. :P

About the pyre, I don't mind it myself, but an outpost sounds neat too. Consider it done!
Berry, before I forget it: You need to look for your custom objects. They always need to start with _Sky. That is the inherited naming pattern, at least. We'd actually do well with changing it for a proper naming scheme at some point.
Alrighty. Many of these I considered placeholders at first, so I wasn't that cautious about naming patterns, and then they you know, established themselves at home :P I think I should actually give this file a thorough cleaning, with all these merges and cuts that took place along these months I'd say it's very due by now.

Cheers!

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Post by berry » Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:48 am

Update!

I took into account all roerich's suggestions, and boy, were they a good call. The docks kick ass now, in my modest opinion. I also replaced the pyre with a watchtower, started fixing some bugs and adjusting IDs, added floating logs along the river and some roadsigns by the crossroads. This is overall looking more and more completed now.

It's not quite done yet, but I'm uploading this already because you will need this file in few hours... I've got a little surprise coming through :D (tension intensifies...) edit: aaand it's here:) Enjoy!
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Post by worsas » Sun Jun 05, 2016 3:48 pm

Did you, by chance, add some kind of script that makes the player character flow down the river? if yes, it seems that you make him flow river-upwards in the eastern tribute of the karth river. Everything should be flowing towards karthgad and past it.

I don't fancy the artificial feeling those blue lightbulbs add to the otherwise very nicely done waterfall. I didn't really mind it before, but after walking there ingame, I can say for sure, it would feel much more natural and better without them.
Not sure on the waysigns directly infront of karthgad. They feel a bit misplaced to me.

That slight ascent towards the karthwasten bridge on the northern side is extremely well done. The shipwreck and floating barrels at the eastern tribute are a nice addition. The rockarch and the new karthwasten docks look great to me aswell.

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Post by roerich » Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:27 pm

Docks are looking great now, perfect job on the makeshifting. Kicking ass indeed! The only small thing I'd alter would be removal of the two rugs and the planters, but that's a minor detail.

Also, I really love the hidden "exterior cave". I feel like this will be very rewarding to come across.

All of this is really coming together!

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Post by berry » Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:24 pm

Thanks for feedback and the testing, guys! :)
worsas wrote:Did you, by chance, add some kind of script that makes the player character flow down the river? if yes, it seems that you make him flow river-upwards in the eastern tribute of the karth river. Everything should be flowing towards karthgad and past it.
That must be vanilla thing, I haven't touched it. I'd probably wouldn't be able to make a script like that, too. :P
worsas wrote:I don't fancy the artificial feeling those blue lightbulbs add to the otherwise very nicely done waterfall. I didn't really mind it before, but after walking there ingame, I can say for sure, it would feel much more natural and better without them.
Well, I don't mind removing/improving them. I added them because that's the convention in Morrowind for some waterfalls at least (Scamp's on mesa #2, Akamora's in TR - I think, haven't been there in years!) and I think an unified approach is a good thing. But I'm open for suggestions on how this waterfall could be improved.
worsas wrote:Not sure on the waysigns directly infront of karthgad. They feel a bit misplaced to me.
I was on the fence about these too, but mostly in regards to placing a Karthgad signpost along them, when Karthgad is right next to them. Eventually decided to place it, once again, because of the convention started by vanilla Morrowind (I mean just check how ridiculous is the roadsign in Moonmoth Legion Fort :P ). I think we can't really have too many waysigns in our mod, as the players won't be able to depend on the world map, at least not until OpenMW is stable enough. I imagined we would have lots of "how to get there" directions, and most of them would start with "take the road heading to Karthwasten..." etc, so it would be beneficial if these wayposts would be as close to the cities as possible.
roerich wrote:Docks are looking great now, perfect job on the makeshifting. Kicking ass indeed! The only small thing I'd alter would be removal of the two rugs and the planters, but that's a minor detail.
Hmm, the rugs may actually be quite off here indeed, they don't really ring a commoner bell... I'd rather keep planters though, there are plenty of these in Karthwasten, and I think it's a nice cross-reference point.
roerich wrote:Also, I really love the hidden "exterior cave". I feel like this will be very rewarding to come across.
Thanks! I was unsure should I make one of the thieves an orc, but it was after the Miracle of Peace already, so it should be fine, right? I wanted to portray a cosmopolitan nature of the Reach that way.

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Post by Scamp » Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:09 am

Berry. I'm going to yank a few cells from your current file:

-108,5
-110,6
-110,7
-110,8
-110,9

Let me know if there are any specific problems with this. And remember to remove them from this claim.

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Post by worsas » Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:23 am

I added them because that's the convention in Morrowind for some waterfalls at least
I think it should be decided on a case-by-case basis. It's not like those waterfalls below mournhold or the vivec ones would be lit that way. I'm strongly for removing them altogether from this waterfall. I don't think people will really notice that as a point of inconsistency with TR ingame. This rocky, pebbly, very rural river and waterfall really work better without them. Please, if you only change one thing, then let it be removing those lights. They really destroy the vipe of this waterfall for me.

On the waysign-issue. I think it's not a problem to have gaps in the waysign network and let people go lost about it. it is another way of showing that the nords aren't big in orderliness and administration. I would still favour removing that waysign and let the players figure out by themselves.

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berry
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Post by berry » Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:22 am

Scamp wrote:Berry. I'm going to yank a few cells from your current file:

-108,5
-110,6
-110,7
-110,8
-110,9

Let me know if there are any specific problems with this. And remember to remove them from this claim.
I just checked them in CS and they should be good to take as they are, there are no interiors or unique refs threre. There are two exterior caves under the road between -110, 8 and -109, 8, but that's all I can think about, really.

@worsas: alrighty, fair enough. I'll remove this stuff. :)

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berry
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Post by berry » Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:43 pm

Update. Mostly tedious and unspectacular work of bugfixing and IDs changing. It's still not quite done, but I'd say I'm halfway there.

Changelog:
  1. fixed looots of bleeders, floaters and casperers. Still got over 20 more written down to fix :P I bet there are even more in the forest I haven't found yet.
  2. replaced quite a number of IDs, more still to come
  3. replaced persarine with bearclaws, and placeholder waysigns with proper ones
  4. worked on the roads leading up the Karth bridge. They're flawless from both sides finally. Also added the package of wasabi to the docks.
  5. added the interiors reviewed by Luxray. Adjusted ID's. Slightly changed the vampire barrow - giving the Nord vampire a ringmail cuirass, instead of a wormmouth one, and placing a little chorten in the corner.
  6. gave giving "lore friendly" names to the interiors of Direnni tunnel, Reachman burial, and the vampire barrow a go. Those are just my proposals, of course.
  7. created a narrow mountain path between hunters' canyon and vampires' mesa
  8. removed Druadach cells that will be used in Scamp's claim
The next version will be the final one, I hope. I'm not really adding new stuff here anymore, but rather trying to steer this claim to the finished state.

Feedback welcome, as always. 8-)
Attachments
Sky_xRe-20_VF.esp
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worsas
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Post by worsas » Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:39 am

Good work on cleaning up and adding signs and stuff. The road around the bridge looks perfect now. It feels great to walk there.

What's with Mistletoe now? Didn't we want to add it around the forest now?

I only have the same suggestions for the next claim:
- reduce amount of railings along the roads.
- fix terrain seam

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