The Reach - Western Grasslands #02 [berry]

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worsas
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The Reach - Western Grasslands #02 [berry]

Post by worsas »

A continuation of Berrys Druadach Highlands Overhaul:
Image

One thing you should definitely do in this claim is adding many more trees in proximity of the forest border to make the grassland look less much like a manually deforested landscape.

I also propose maybe keeping the burned village and adding the orc-reachmen village somewhere around the forest border instead. But that is something you will have to try out. If you end up replacing the burned village, I''ll be fine with that aswell.

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Post by Luxray »

Exciting! I was actually going to post since I knew you wanted a claim berry, so looking forward to seeing what you come up with here. 8-)
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Post by berry »

Sweet! Thanks.

I think I will locate the village on that lone cliff in the middle then. It will be hidden inside small forest too, so as a bonus I think it will correlate with Uramok Camp's design nicely. I plan to make it reachable from the cliffs via Sky_Ex_Ropebridge_02 covered with furs from the orcish set (assuming I can pull that off nicely) and some subtle Reachmen decorations.

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Post by Scamp »

Yayhay progress! Any particular reason why you don't want to include more grassland cells to the west (-108, 6-8 or whatever those are)? Seems a little strange how you cut it off there with old grassland areas remaining in between your new claim and that canyon.

Village on cliff sounds cool.

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Post by berry »

The claim ends quite abruptly, yeah, but I figured it will be a lesser evil to leave them untouched for now, as they border Roerich's current claim. I'd rather we wait and see what both of us come up with and then join the two claims accurately.

Assuming Roerich is okay with that, I can take those cells as well and mod at least the eastern halves of them, to terminate the cliffy part of the valley. That would restrict his freedom here though + we both have lots of work with those claims already. Hence probably better to let them as they are for a while.

The northern part of the landscape is roughly done now, I like how it corresponds with Worsas claim on the west & Vorndgad forest on the east.

View on Dragonstar valley
Image

#1
Image

#2
Image

The village
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As seen from the north
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View from above the crossing
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Close to Dragonstar already
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Obligatory sunset screen :P
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Markarth-Dragonstar-Snowhawk crossing
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Rocky way up the cliffs
Image

Next step: cutting the cells out & merging them with the ones from my previous claim. Beginning work on the southern cliffs.
Last edited by berry on Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by worsas »

I'm not sure on the peaky rocks on that little mesa. I think we should avoid using those mountain peak assets in most Reach areas. Try to stick to flat shaped rocks instead.
Also, make sure to replace the gravel road with dirt_05 or the road texture. I want to get rid of the gravel road entirely, because it doesn't seem like a reasonable material for a road.

But other than that I like what I see so far.

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Post by berry »

Progress ahoy! I took some screens (along with my previous claim and Skyrim_Main, for better overview. Any of these can be posted freely on officials) and need to ask for a counsel on some points. Also - the file.
  1. I realised were we to add like three more cells (i.e. -108, 14; -108, 13 and -108, 12) from Skyrim_Exterior to this claim, it would blend perfectly with Skyrim_main file & my first claim in this part. Should I do so, for simpler merging? That's how it looks now, with Berry's claim #1, claim #2 and Skyrim_main active:
    [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/xed5VyB.png[/hsimg]
  2. The village. I decided to make it quite bigger than what we discussed (that is 9 interiors, including 3 orsimers' yurts; I can get some of them done myself, if that's a problem) and actually filthy rich, at least by Reachmen standards. Why? The way it turned out, it is located on a top of a badass natural stronghold, by the main road network of the region, close to big forest for hunting and open hills for pasturage, with no other hamlets around, thanks to Bend'r-mahk war. Plus they have Orcs with them, and we all know how strong and crafty those guys can be. I don't think every Reachmen settlement should have that run-down look, and it certainly seemed like a fitting one for making it distinguish. I'm open for discussion here though.
    Road up there:
    [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/1yZz3uq.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/GaS64b6.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/KsjCpVN.png[/hsimg]

    Seen from away:
    [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/2SLZY3P.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/zthUOIk.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/GVQ4w6F.png[/hsimg]

    Watchtower with Umbra (guest appearance) on a look-out:
    [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/3R0WYcx.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/aC4HV3R.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/jJG0wwx.png[/hsimg]

    Close-ups:
    [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/Sm254jp.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/zfTwXNF.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/zWqHJo8.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/brxOBXw.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/dSI10z1.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/JjRiB64.png[/hsimg]
  3. Exterior caves of the claim. There are currently 2 caves hidden in the cliffs in this area (not counting that gorge with a waterfall and the long tunnel leading to the cave, see below) and I won't add any more. Look for Sky_In_Cave_Rock_04_05 and Sky_In_Cave_Rock_04_19; the one by the road will be a wiped out hideout of brigands/Redguard insurrectionists, and that one by the village will be something natural, like a black bear den.
  4. About the tunnel then. I had that idea for secret, narrow tunnel leading into a cliff, ending with an entrance to an ancient vampire hideout or some other sinister interior. You can see how it would look like in -110,12, the tunnel ends with Sky_Ex_Exit_Cave_Rock_04_03. Eventually I ceased working on that, as I'm not sure Morrowind engine can handle stuff like that really. Without MGE shades and and that "rain blocking" feature of MCP it would look wrongly, that's for sure. I suppose I could just make it end somewhere by the first turning, so it wouldn't feel that unnatural in vanilla Morrowind? But I'm really looking forward to hearing your opinions here.
  5. Lastly - how should I name unique objects that I add to the claim? I need one rope acting as a door (to climb out from the gorge) and one new dark light to use with the red candles by Trinimac's altar, so people using PeterBitt's Negative Lights Remover could enjoy this eerie effect as intended.
[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/drQXqpd.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/bl5M6j7.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/S7k2RP7.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/3sIaD4m.png[/hsimg]
[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/HFCHolH.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/MtzUcy5.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/LA1pFE4.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/MrgCchX.png[/hsimg]
[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/zRux6Av.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/iaCaX5X.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/hP7URZd.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/5Rwegop.png[/hsimg]
[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/lt1fPJS.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/SRK7jcW.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/mhtWQVl.png[/hsimg]
Worsas wrote:I want to get rid of the gravel road entirely, because it doesn't seem like a reasonable material for a road.
Why? There are some gravel roads even nowadays, and that material was relatively easy for Nords to collect, as there are tons of gravel on the river's bottom. I'm not saying it's the best choice here (e.g. I really liked that dirt-cobblestones roads you used by Karthgad area), but it certainly sounds plausible to me.

Now, I don't know whether it makes sense to have gravel road leading to Dragonstar per se, given how it originates from another cultural circle with different geography.

I think that's all for now. As always, I appreciate any input :) and once again - have a great Sunday, guys!
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Post by Luxray »

Nice screens!

Regarding the underpass, might it look better if you piled some smaller stones against the wall? Might hide that weird texture transition as well.

e.g.

Image
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Post by worsas »

Why? There are some gravel roads even nowadays, and that material was relatively easy for Nords to collect, as there are tons of gravel on the river's bottom. I'm not saying it's the best choice here (e.g. I really liked that dirt-cobblestones roads you used by Karthgad area), but it certainly sounds plausible to me.
The gravel doesn't seem like something you would actually want to walk on, unless you have thick shoe soles like nowadays shoes have. I have often been looking at our roads, thinking, if I was actually that person, I would walk next to the road rather than on it. Apart from that the gravel road texture looks like the gravel had just been poured over it and it hasn't been used since, without the slightest dirt, errosion or overgrowth. Gravels don't look rounded like river gravel but like gravel created by pulverisation of stone and perfectly uniform. The gravel in the river and the wastelands has a very different color aswell. I can't find enough words to express how much I want to get rid of that road texture. (sorry)

On your village:
I'm not sure, I like all of your makeshifted stuff. Yetis proposal was to show the orc tents in a way indicative of the fact that the orcs are visitors but no constant installment. The orc tent roof attached to a reachmen house doesn't work well, in my opinion. But the orc containers and orc clutter objects are fine. The thatch roofs on the towers look very makeshifted to me. Due to how visible they make the village, I would remove the tower altogether. Why have several doors on the same house wall next to each other? Apart from the fact that this cannot be modelled with our current interior cells, it doesn't look quite right. It looks too special/makeshifted/unusual. But you need to establish a sense of regularity/consistency in how something looks like. If you try to show something different and special in every spot, you lose the sense of what is special and what is not. It only works if you have it accompanied by more consistency and regularity. I'm not sure how to express it well. Don't get me the wrong way. I appreciate the work you put into this and I think you've been doing an extremely appealing landscaping in your previous claim and you continue to do so in your current claim. But one of the very points why we are even making this overhaul is that there were inconsistencies between neighbouring exterior regions. Now that the cliffs have been transported to this formerly blank grassland, the overall (especially distant land) picture of the region is much more regular and consistent. Cliffs are followed by other cliffs in a somewhat even frequence rather than interrupted by an enclosed hilly landscape. But the same thing needs to be ensured on the micro-level with rocks, trees, plants, buildings used consistently in a single region or house set like the Reachmen one.

On the size of the village: It stands on a well-defensible position but also on one that is easily visible from the nearby roads. The village should be small enough so the houses aren't visible from the road leading next to it. Keep in mind that reachmen are probably not tolerated next to such a well-frequented road crossing. It would make most sense to assume that the village has been established just recently trying to find a hidden and defensible, but temporary hideout.

I love that fireplace in the middle of the village. In theory I like what you did with the upstanding rock in the village. I only don't like the rock itself very much. It looks horrible from a 3D-model point of view. I'm generally in a position where my 3D models, of which there are many, are judged by people from outside. Our models are generally in a worse quality than those created for Oblivion- or skyrim-mods. But some models are particularly bad and only kept for compatibility reason. I am afraid that people will generally view our mod as a mod with bad 3D-modelling, if many of these objects remain in use. If you can, look for an alternative rock, one that looks like it could have stood there in advance and doesn't break up the overall picture that much.

Another general advice I have given other people before, is shifting your windows deeper into the building rather than have them sting out that far. That helps to make the window look more like a window rather than an object that has been attached to the wall.
I realised were we to add like three more cells (i.e. -108, 14; -108, 13 and -108, 12) from Skyrim_Exterior to this claim, it would blend perfectly with Skyrim_main file & my first claim in this part. Should I do so, for simpler merging? That's how it looks now, with Berry's claim #1, claim #2 and Skyrim_main active:
Go for it, I say.

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Post by worsas »

Blergh, my yesterday post hasn't been well worded. It had been a depressing day for me. Some lengthy explanations on consistency, or what I see as consistency, might have been superfluous. But most of my points on the village and the road still stand and I'd be happy, if they were addressed in some way or the other. Again, I hope you don't take this the wrong way. I still remember how upset I was myself, when receiving critizism by several people at TR back in the days. That's why I often feel uncomfortable about making posts like the yesterday one. But ultimately there is not really a way around it, if we want to ensure there is a certain level of quality from everybodys point of view.

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Post by Scamp »

Sorry berry for not looking at your claim. I still can't really find time for it (leaving for the rest of the week tomorrow, too, so it'll have to wait until next week). All I can say right now is that Worsas is absolutely right that we need to get the consistency right on a micro-detail level (did you read that with Todd Howard's voice in mind? I wouldn't be surprised... hehe). Again I can't really judge this as I haven't seen your exterior.

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Post by berry »

Luxray wrote: Regarding the underpass, might it look better if you piled some smaller stones against the wall? Might hide that weird texture transition as well.
That's a good idea, thanks! I intended to put some spare rocks here and there in that spot, but covering it with flat rocks as you suggest would work even better.
Scamp wrote:Sorry berry for not looking at your claim. I still can't really find time for it (leaving for the rest of the week tomorrow, too, so it'll have to wait until next week). All I can say right now is that Worsas is absolutely right that we need to get the consistency right on a micro-detail level (did you read that with Todd Howard's voice in mind? I wouldn't be surprised... hehe). Again I can't really judge this as I haven't seen your exterior.
I'll try my best not to screw anything too much while you're gone, don't worry :P and those problematic issues I wrote about earlier can wait, there's loads of other stuff to do.

Worsas, thanks for review and cool, no offence was taken. We all have worse days sometimes, I hope everything is fine with you. The stuff you mentioned consisted of valid points and I agree with them, in fact I tried to settle most of that matters already, as you can see on the pics. The tower is still here, as I couldn't bring myself to raze it yet. :cry: Like it :) The village received a facelift itself, I removed one tent and both orcish overhangs and made it more squeezed. Feels more comfy now. As for the road, I tried to gave it similiar look you did in new Karthgad area, I'm satisfied with the efect too. Lastly, remembering how I suggested Polish Table Mountains as a source of inspiration for the region, I tried to turn that doubtful rock into mushroom rock. I'll have to fiddle with that concept a little more, but I think it's a way to go here.

I also added those 3 additional cells to the file.
[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/OIIdJFo.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/O2ovnPR.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/gAOklZF.png[/hsimg]
[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/j0MlfYB.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/lkpzZ4f.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/cAlMhST.png[/hsimg] What do you guys think about that ruined Redguard wayside inn concept? I thought it made sense here, by the crossroads; this area used to be quite prosperous ante bellum I believe.

[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/ITiiFow.png[/hsimg]
Last edited by berry on Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by worsas »

One last bulk of feedback:

If you haven't planned to do so yet, you should set the street more apart from its surroundings, by having it more sunk in or by framing it with a stronger bulge, so the geometrical shape of the road compensates the very visible limits of texture painting. We should do that with our road network everywhere, because we need to make the roads narrower and we'll come across the problem that the street texture cannot line up as we'd like to, anymore.

The village is already much better, but you should maybe remove another reachmen house yet. One of the houses at the little property ruin couldn't have been enterable in its days. We should probably try to not add many more villages or house ruins from now on. We now have a number of populated Reachmen villages and countless destroyed villages in the hold, so it is very well-populated by now, probably just right.

I have another last thing, but I'll finally leave you to your own creativity after it: You still tend to use too many distinctive rock shapes. It is probably a tough thing to say, but I believe we should stop adding new and more variations to the landscaping of the Reach. We should only try to replicate the look of previously finished areas, especially your former claim and stick with the rocks used and the way of their usage therein.

For one I would remove the instances of Sky_Terrain_Rock_04_121 you have added in the southern part of your claim, because they really break up the look of the landscape for me. Also, try to avoid rocks that are bended in themselves. If I could go back in time, I would even request to get rid of rock arches, because they are yet another landscape feature that breaks up the look of everything, but I'd not bother at this point. The only advice I can give you: If there is no precedent for something you want to do, don't do it. Try to replicate your previous claim as well as you can and you should be fine.

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Post by berry »

Little progress has been done here, due to the fuss around Easter and so on. I mostly focused on 'roady-fying' the pathways and basic vertex painting; the main duct is mostly done, while the roads to Haimtir & cliff-top village and the village itself still wait in line. From other changes: I tried to normalize rocks' employment, the ruins I placed are gone for now (and that Breton sentinel is gone for good) and the village is back at 7 interiors.

Once the landscape is done, I will regenerate the grass and the proper detailing will begin. About that: I want the forest to end on the natural border of the cliffs, so there will be lots of trees, stumps and bushes around the main road, accompanied by blank/grassy rocks in bigger numbers than in forest itself; I'm aiming for that transition-between-regions look for the cells down there.

For the areas atop the cliffs I will mimic the look of my first showcase, though there will be much less trees on the northern cliff, it will maintain it's dirty look, I want to place just one grove somewhere by the ruined village. By the way to Haimtir there will be 2-3 more groves.

I'd appreciate the feedback for what I'm doing here, though bear in mind this is on a very early work stage here. :) cheers

@Worsas: I realized myself some time ago I tend to overuse the eye-catching concepts I come up with, so thanks for notifying me about the rocks :P I'm my own most fierce critic when it comes to stuff like that, believe me. I'm with you on keeping some standards in the project.
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Post by Scamp »

So is that the new official road texture where using throughout the Reach? It looks very different, although not in a bad way, I suppose.

Did you place that Breton tower on the very top of that hill? Cool beans!
berry wrote:[...]Once the landscape is done, I will regenerate the grass and the proper detailing will begin.[...]
Not sure that'll work on the forest, though. At least not without redoing it entirely. I'd rather like seeing you keeping the forest as it is, only making adjustments to the transition between forest and cliffs as you have described in that previous post of yours.
berry wrote:[...]I'm with you on keeping some standards in the project.
It's not standard - it's a matter of consistency within one region. We can come up with lots of new, exciting stuff when we get to other regions. Speaking of that, I do dislike those rock arches. Isn't there a better way to make that canyon look more interesting?

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Post by berry »

Scamp wrote:Did you place that Breton tower on the very top of that hill? Cool beans!
It's been here before. It's lovely, I agree. I fiddled with a concept of a watchtower by the feet of that mountain, but closeness & coolness of that hilltop tower made me drop that idea.
Scamp wrote:Not sure that'll work on the forest, though. At least not without redoing it entirely. I'd rather like seeing you keeping the forest as it is, only making adjustments to the transition between forest and cliffs as you have described in that previous post of yours.
That's been the idea all along, though I might have it worded out poorly here. I'll make as little as possible changes to adjacent completed cells, though I could possibly conduct some changes there in spirit of that plan for region renewal?

I'll see what can be done about the arches, they shouldn't be that hard to replace.

What about those points, by the way?
About the tunnel then. I had that idea for secret, narrow tunnel leading into a cliff, ending with an entrance to an ancient vampire hideout or some other sinister interior. You can see how it would look like in -110,12, the tunnel ends with Sky_Ex_Exit_Cave_Rock_04_03. Eventually I ceased working on that, as I'm not sure Morrowind engine can handle stuff like that really. Without MGE shades and and that "rain blocking" feature of MCP it would look wrongly, that's for sure. I suppose I could just make it end somewhere by the first turning, so it wouldn't feel that unnatural in vanilla Morrowind? But I'm really looking forward to hearing your opinions here.
Lastly - how should I name unique objects that I add to the claim? I need one rope acting as a door (to climb out from the gorge) and one new dark light to use with the red candles by Trinimac's altar, so people using PeterBitt's Negative Lights Remover could enjoy this eerie effect as intended.
They can wait, I'm just reminding bout them. :P

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Post by Scamp »

Maybe we should keep the overhaul as a thing to do seperately later on, so that we don't lose track of which areas have been tweaked already and which haven't. The issue about rain falling through meshes is present with all of your exterior tunnels, so it doesn't really matter if it comes up once more.

I don't really know about naming conventions. As long as you put an underscore in front of the id and name it in a way so that people get a rough idea of what that thing is that you have added, we shouldn't run into any problems.

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Post by worsas »

I love that passage where the road bends around the little gorge. And that rock layering you have been making in this and your previous claim looks fantastic. I agree with Scamp that we'll be better off with removing most rock arches, but the one rock arch above the little gorge seems fine to me. In my opinion, it would be better to remove Sky_Terrain_MT_04_Peak_01 yet and fill the space with something different, non-peaky. Your cluttered cliffs seem visually underline Lestats rocky hill/mountain nearby very well, by the way. I haven't checked ingame, but it seemed so from within the CS.

Until now we have always named our custom object _Sky_Something. We should maybe look about a proper naming scheme yet.

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Post by berry »

Some update. The village, forest border by the mountain, area around the road to Haimtir and the rocky passage up the village all received some lifting, so the landscape is almost done now. Sadly all three roads still tend to look crappy & flat in game here and there, so that's something I'm trying to cope with before I can generate the grass.

The green vertex paint marks the approx. locations of groves.
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Post by worsas »

Maybe just put something in the way the road needs to bend around? If it requires touching the forest cells, I'd say, so be it. Yeti will need to fix them anyway, no matter, if you only change a little bit terrain or something more. In both cases we'll also revisit the cells when Yeti is done with the npcing.

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Post by berry »

I managed to make the roads look decent eventually (they look better and more natural than those from my previous claim, at the very least :P ). With grass back in place (I'm still to diversify it more yet) and more detailing going on, this claim is heading towards completion now. I say it looks interesting in game already, though there is still a long way to go here obviously.

I think I might have overdrawn the rocks around the village, I'll get back to it in few days and see whether some of those flat rocks are to go. Also, those reddish scrubs by the village hill are meant to underline mystical feel around rock-shrine to Trinimac; hope they don't seem out of place.
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Post by Scamp »

So are we using both gravel and stone for roads now...? I'm confused about this. I thought we were going to replace gravel altogether because it's unfitting. In that case, you should definitely do so here as well.

I really do love those red-ish grass patches around the village, very nice touch. I don't think it's out of place, it's rather something that players will notice and investigate.

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Post by berry »

Okay, looong due update. I'm having less time to work on it recently, but step by step the progress got considerable over this month. The old cells are done in 80-90 percents, I'd say, with some detailing/fixing/grass work still to take place, while the three cells bordering Dragonstar claim (still named Claim_delete) start to shape out as well. The roads are done too. Overall I tried to design this claim as an area where all surrounding varying regions meet and gradually turn.

Some quick points summing up the progress:

1. The village cliff as I see it is now completed. I'm open to suggestions if any changes are due, but I'd rather we kept those orcish incenses and the bridge statues, pretty please. I will remove the animals later on.

2. There were two dungeons in the claim area, they are located roughly in the same place now; DoorMarker-shaped statics called "_interior" guide to them for your convienience. I turned one of this caves into goblin cave, I figured it's fitting here, with rough-looking countryside, rich road network nearby(which goes with higher chances for rich loot) and many groups of Orsimer around, that may have their own deals with their lesser cousins. I'm fine with (re)moving this cave though, if masterplanning says so. The other cave, placed not far from Dragonstar in secluded cliff side, could make cool Redguard resistance/highwaymen hideout, in my opinion.

3. I placed lots of exterior caves around the claim, they are pointed out by "_cave" statics that use NorthMarker arrow as a model. Most of them aren't anything special, though I located some points of interest here and there - there's an underground waterfall, abandoned lycanthrope lair, two wiped out resistance caves and a hideaway of Nordic spy (starring: Uncle Sweetshare :P ) Those are just my proposals though, I'm okay with repurposing the caves, feel free to shoot ideas or requests, I'd appreciate them. The caves should be Altmer PC-friendly, by the way, but I'll do some more testing along the way.

4. That "ref.esp" plugin contains surrounding cells that weren't included in Skyrim_main or my first claim; I cut them out from main exterior file for cleaner and easier reference. Perhaps they can be of some use to somebody as well. :)
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worsas
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Post by worsas »

I have loaded the ref.esp, your current file and your previous claim together to get an impression of it all. You really succeeded in making the whole area much more subdivided and filled with smaller and bigger points of interest. It feels much truer to the vanilla game now. What I like most is how this claim transitions to your previous claim and the mountain with the tower ruin on top. The little caves are quite nice. I don't mind the two dungeon caves, either. And the village looks great to me.

Though there is one big problem with your claim: The road to Dragonstar. You mentioned your worries earlier but it is still a problem and I'm not sure how to address it. The road is very long, wide and straight and... boring. One possible idea would be adding a major nord ruin somewhere along the road, probably on the forest side and make the road circumvent it. But that is merely one possibility. Alternatively you could add a bigger terrain interruption of some sort that would continue into the forest part, if needed. A third possibility would be recharacterizing the road into a narrower dirt path and make it more meandering aswell.

I'm not sure on some of your rock placements again. It's probably because I spend very much time on the placement of rocks and making them look just right, myself. To me some of the rock constructions around the village and the western upper plane do not seem to fit well into the overall picture. I took two screenshots to display the problematic areas, but it is really up to you to do something about it or not.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/223 ... usage1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/223 ... usage2.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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berry
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Post by berry »

Thanks for the feedback. I'm currently working on issues you mentioned and I think you nailed it with your suggestions. It looks way better now:

Northern part of the road

[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/sv6LS7a.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/1Y675eH.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/eG4rK2x.png[/hsimg]

Rocks

[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/cK1GkS7.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/i3fBTKW.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/yzsE0aZ.png[/hsimg]

Southern part of the road

[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/MgfKomo.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/9wZY68d.png[/hsimg]

I want to throw in some more (mostly devastated) railings and then I think we can call it a day; regarding road part of this claim, that is.

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berry
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Post by berry »

Update. The revived roads are finished now. :)

I had to include additional three more empty cells further south, as some weird shit was happening to the landscape by the claim's edge. It turned out it was just simpler and less frustrating that way. I will remove these later on, of course.
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worsas
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Post by worsas »

The road has turned out really cool now. It's great to see how you keep updating your claim on a regular base like this.

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berry
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Post by berry »

Hi everyone.

I apologize for recent lack of progress here (or whatever boards activity from my side, frankly), health's been a bitch. Forced break from modding however made me realise lots of spots in this claim badly needed some kind of update, or even a small overhaul. Well, I got down to it recently and I think the area looks way better now, more natural and consistent with surrounding Worsas's/Scamp's cells.

Changes:
  • included additional two more cells further north, -109, 17 and -110, 17. These two cells border closely the edge of new cliff range and there was no way to make it fit surrounding without altering them as well. By the border with these cells, I added few more dirtgrass and grass bolders, some small rocks as well, a grove of some kind and a goblin lair (see below). I put few more trees and stumps in empty spots in these two as well - the forest effectively extends as far as here, so they were needed for transition sake. No other changes to these cells were done.
  • moved the goblin cave back to where the cave originaly was in main exterior file. This area with it's rocky, desolated mood just seemed more fitting for goblins.
  • added few smaller cliffs around the village cliff
  • did LOTS of detailing around the claim. I focused on replacing big, bad looking rocks with boulders, smaller rocks and cliffs, mimicking Scamp on Worsas on that. Things look better now, feel more natural. Overall optimisation took advantage of it as well.
  • did some work in village as well. Added new well, moved that 'matriarch's big house' more up the hill, placed her private herbarium next to it, as well as a big statue to Mara
  • got the "foresty part" of the main road (ranging from Markarth-Karthwasten-Dragonstar crossing to that breach with the waterfall and the arch) mostly done.
  • replaced ruined imperial meshes in -109, 14 exterior cave with barrow meshes. They look cooler and make more sense here, carved in the mountain.
  • some more bugs and landscape issues were fixed as well, probably
Screens: (imgur link for convenience; there are lots of them) [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/HCuciIt.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/HFPHpXl.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/mFQUB5x.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/QzJYhXi.png[/hsimg]
[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/ao0OnbU.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/Y4SoLZC.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/8CdAk6J.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/cEW5eQW.png[/hsimg]
[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/noBm3Mf.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/3mSs9F3.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/yckm3fy.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/T0NfQKA.png[/hsimg]
[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/HmHHEwV.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/ChmnsVw.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/RkrSHNK.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/BiFmSc5.png[/hsimg]
[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/tEcpAGh.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/FWUvu5t.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/UyKtMus.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/KXhOFgo.png[/hsimg]
[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/ufoeeKF.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/xTd1Dlw.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/CGKw4E6.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/DUzlID8.png[/hsimg]
[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/zBPqNQa.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/RDesXLn.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/cQK4Uuu.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/VzjiR5v.png[/hsimg]
[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/b1u0Dv7.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/As3FK5c.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/gdcAvYZ.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/dEEy45a.png[/hsimg]
[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/YAyN7Xn.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/Aa9JMaB.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/gQ0cyY8.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/CWSaerd.png[/hsimg]
[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/Ge6H31C.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/r2havjF.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/QVWr0X8.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/pCeo5GY.png[/hsimg]
[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/1picNue.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/avSzaAn.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/fdrVgG9.png[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/tkkGhGi.png[/hsimg]
[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/3tzF3rX.png[/hsimg] To do:
Well, still lots. I think the landscape editions can be considered to be roughly done, but I still have to check them for any errors. Then - the grass generation. I plan to get that phase done by the end of July. Overall, I hope this claim will be ready for review in early September, but I really don't want to tempt fate here.

Now... It feels shameful to ask for that, as this claim probably already contains like one sixth of the Reach :D but I'd really like to get two more bordering cells from my first claim redone within this claim's boundaries, if everyone's fine with it. I think my skills improved greatly since then, and although remaining part of my old valley can be let as it is, I bet, these 2 cells really stand out. Took some screens to show what it looks like, and to show how I plan to deal with them:

[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/ZIsqRlv.jpg[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/xnM7nkE.jpg[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/uQ0odZK.jpg[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/DPecq75.jpg[/hsimg]

Green circles represent the groves, as always. :)

Unless I'm forgetting anything (and I likely do), that's all for now. I'll try to catch on with other active topics soon.

Cheers, guys. It's good to be back on it.

oh, and I'm updating ref.esp as well, with -109, 17 and -110, 17 cut from it
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roerich
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Post by roerich »

We are lucky to have you on board, your alterations look absolutely great. I like how the Reachman village finally has the right feel. I've got no criticism to add right now, as I've only looked at the screenshots and no CS files.
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worsas
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Post by worsas »

Berry, you have a talent in making your best spots inaccessible for players! :P

That little exterior cavern with blocked tomb entrance looks gorgeous, I have only been able to reach it ingame by cheating. The cavern entrance is not high enough for Nords and other tall races and nobody will find that cavern without your friendly hinting arrows. My suggestion:

Raise a slim line of terrain and create a narrow dirt path in the spot shown on this screenshot that will lead up to the cavern. Remove the stones from the entrance and add a little barrow interior on your own. Let's go without an interior claim this time. You know how to make interiors, after all, apart from the minor finickies of placement.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/223 ... 44.608.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have not come across your goblin cave so far, but judging from your screenshots it is one of the most amazing cave entrances I have seen. Make sure that there is a way to find and get to the entrance without boosting acrobatics or using levitation. ;)

-----------------------------

A few minor things that I didn't like (again):
- The flat rocks shifted into the cliffsides don't look quite right. Also there is a suspended flat rock between the cliff sides in the narrow cliff path. I would just delete all of these.
- You should add more small rocks at the bottom of cliff sides, as they look a bit empty and bland at the moment.
- I don't like this accumulation of rocks: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/223 ... _rocks.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; --- If you add grass rocks on top of cliffs, always make sure that they seamlessly transition to the terrain, otherwise leave it. The rocks in the foreground have a well-visible seams at the bottom that you would better cover up by smaller rocks. But honestly, I would maybe delete this complete accumulation including exterior cavern as it doesn't harmonize well with the surroundings.
- Sky_Ex_Smith_Shed_03 in the reachmen village should be replaced by something more fitting.

-This cliffside looks like a cluttered mess: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/223 ... ffside.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So I made a quick mockup to give you rough idea how it could be improved upon: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/223 ... mockup.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-----------------------------

I'd say go ahead with including the two cells, you mentioned above. It might even make sense, if you did a complete overhaul of the Druadach Highlands to accomodate to your style, once you have your rock issues sorted out. You still don't seem to have a good idea of harmonizing rock shapes, even if your exterior work is excellent in all other respect, especially when it comes to meaningful locations.

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