Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

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Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by worsas » Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:02 pm

A claim for updating the area labelled 19 on this map:
[hsimg=]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/223 ... claims.jpg[/hsimg]

Related discussion:
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Please include the additional, adjacent cells posted at the end of this thread:
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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Unclaimed]

Post by worsas » Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:27 pm

I'll take this. I was considering doing #20, but that one contains a to-be-turned-into-a-ford bridge. I'll rather leave that stuff to Berry. ;P

Since most of this claim could worked on without the karthwasten-file, I'll start with only Skyrim_Main_v01 for now.

Should I exchange the stone bridge for a ropebridge? This and moving the hermit cabin can be done at the very end, though, when merging this with the KW-file.

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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by Luxray » Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:49 pm

I would rather keep that stone bridge, in my opinion it fits Karthwasten's backstory as a previous capital, and it's quite imposing whilst high enough to let other boats under it.
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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by berry » Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:20 pm

I eventually got to become fond of the stone bridge too. It fits magnificently here, albeit it might a little too low now for boats to cross it. Still, I'm not sure it's reasonable to burden ourselves with this level of detail. The Skaal carvings on it might be another issue then (even though I have no problem with them myself), but in this case a simple texture-swap with our one of ours stone and wood textures would suffice.

It's great you're on it, man. I'd love to take #20 sometimes later this month when you're done.

Please, don't rush. :P

Edit: there were these errors in Skyrim_main as well

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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by worsas » Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:49 pm

Due to an insane amount of effort, I have been able to rescale all trees within the Skyrim_Main_v01.esp. So I'll upload my file for a backup.
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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by roerich » Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:24 pm

Looking damn good.

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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by worsas » Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:47 pm

Yeah, it's impressive how much larger everything looks now. It also helps a lot to see what needs to be done for more continuity with the surrounding areas. I've been trying a few things yesterday but nothing worth showing yet.

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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by worsas » Mon Nov 09, 2015 7:45 pm

My apologies for deleting the previous post. Not sure what the hell came over me.

Anyway, a progress screen and some information:
[hsimg=]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/223 ... t_wip1.jpg[/hsimg]

The fundamental terrain changes are done and I've started to do some actual detailling as seen in the foreground. I probably got carried away and destroyed a fair bit of past-time exterior work. But without those radical clearings I wouldn't have been able to do what I had in mind.

In general we'll be having more cleared grass spots now so that the amount of trees will not increase much. But densely forested areas will remain or even made denser as they are now, since the trees got rescaled. Small clearings have always been missing in the past, though.

Though, the biggest change I have in mind, is with regards to the grassy ground cover, that has always been the main source of annoyance to me. I will move most of the actual grass to clearings and only keep shrubs and bushes in the shaded areas below trees. The leafy ground texture will only remain below decidious trees whereas the clearings and the areas below pines will get the moldy dirt texture.

I also found a better solution for the tall mountain peak without removing it or reverting it to the old state. I'll show it later.

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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by berry » Tue Nov 10, 2015 12:51 pm

This extension to Karthgad's cliffs looks just great. I liked the mountains around hunters' cabins/Uramok camp though, but these cliffs are impressive as well. I agree they probably fit southern Reach better, but I would vote against disregarding mountainous meshes altogether - they exist in northern Reach counties already, so if you ask me it would make sense for them to start to appear in small numbers as you move north from the Druadachs. Central Reach could be a transition area between flat mesas of the south and rocky mountains of the north/east. I'm curious what you have in your sleeve in regards to them.

The points regarding grass sounds fair, I've tried to replace some of the grass with shrubs in #11 parts of my Druadach claims already.

I was not aware of the scale of the changes you are conducting here. It looks damn massive. I'm sorry for not finding time for checking your progress file too. If there's anything you find particularly burdening or tiresome or if you just feel you need a break from this overhaul, don't hestitate to pass it down on me. This system seems to work well if you ask me, and it's only fair, considering how you managed to get a lion's share of claim #20 done already... :)

By the way, do you plan to keep leafy rock bridge on a way to hunters' camp? I found that spot lovely and I think it would be a shame was it removed. Forest dirt path leading under it would be a sight to see.

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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by worsas » Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:40 pm

berry wrote:This extension to Karthgad's cliffs looks just great. I liked the mountains around hunters' cabins/Uramok camp though, but these cliffs are impressive as well. I agree they probably fit southern Reach better, but I would vote against disregarding mountainous meshes altogether - they exist in northern Reach counties already, so if you ask me it would make sense for them to start to appear in small numbers as you move north from the Druadachs. Central Reach could be a transition area between flat mesas of the south and rocky mountains of the north/east. I'm curious what you have in your sleeve in regards to them.
The eastern Reach is still very mesa-like with the farmland- and the wasteland - mesas, but they should gradually fade out towards north in the farmland region and be absent in the Falkar Foothills. I fear that they are starting to become repetitive, anyway. I have not turned that mountain into a mesa. I have only lowered it significantly so the tower ruin makes for its highest point. You can see it in the file. It looked really shitty as a flattened, towering mesa, as I had it in between. The high mountain peak from before was a bit too extreme, though, in my opinion. I'm not generally against mountains in The Reach, but they should be low compared to their inland cousins.
berry wrote:I was not aware of the scale of the changes you are conducting here. It looks damn massive. I'm sorry for not finding time for checking your progress file too. If there's anything you find particularly burdening or tiresome or if you just feel you need a break from this overhaul, don't hestitate to pass it down on me. This system seems to work well if you ask me, and it's only fair, considering how you managed to get a lion's share of claim #20 done already... :)
I actually have some guilt feelings about those massive terrain changes. I was wanting to do something far less radical and work-intensive at first. I think it would have been wiser to circumvent most of the effort by leaving finished exteriors as they are. But if we try to avoid it in future, except for those areas where it's not to be avoided, we'll maybe get away with it another time and still be able to do some progress on the areas beyond.

Thankyou for your offer of help. Would you mind taking over the file right now? I don't mean to greedibly grab your help like this, but it's hurting me in the neck and I'm a bit at a loss on how to proceed with this claim, at the moment.
berry wrote:By the way, do you plan to keep leafy rock bridge on a way to hunters' camp? I found that spot lovely and I think it would be a shame was it removed. Forest dirt path leading under it would be a sight to see.
Yes, apart from the fact that it's outside of my claim's boundaries anyway. I only wanted to do some very very fundamental groundwork outside of my claim to create a consistent, continuous overall picture. At most, I'd have replaced the rockbridge with an uncovered version. It's up to you. I don't mind eitherway, but I think that that particular valley does not need much or any work. I agree that it's one of the best spots in the region.

Edit: I have put -104,11 and -105,11 back to their old state. Looks better.
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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by roerich » Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:34 pm

Awesome work, from those screens. Terribly busy right now, sorry I can't check out the file right now.

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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by berry » Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:39 am

K, as for yet I have skimmed through the file. I will give this a deeper overview and start working on it over the weekend. I like what I see here, it would be much harder to lead those planned dirt paths without these landscape adjustments.

If this brush-up gets too much overwhelming for the time being, we could just base release on current Vorndgad's state and work on it for future release. But then, it's actually not that bad when it comes to the amount of work needed here, as far as I can tell.

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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by berry » Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:01 pm

Update!
  • fixed most of the landscape tearings
  • outline a possible route for new dirt paths in planning, using fancy glowing balls 1
  • finished "sightblocker rocks" range 1
  • started to work on the fords (well, a ford, for the time being) 1
  • made an exterior of Cejovo grotto stand out a little more 1
  • started detailing new plateaus, most notably finished a Reachman from Vorngad brush-up proposal, put some (supposedly) baddies around it too. I think it turned out a little like Dragon word wall/Daedric shrine from later two TES games. It's probably a good direction to follow with this stuff. 1 2 3
I'm thinking I'd like to finish both new mesas and the fords - should be done with it within a week or so - but then I'd like to let it go. Would you be okay with reclaiming this by then, Worsas? I suppose I could handle the rest of it too, but at much slower pace. I'm sorry, but I can't afford so time consuming work now.

I'd love to grab few small interiors when I'm done here, though, they're great for relaxing. :P
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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by worsas » Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:23 am

I'm thinking I'd like to finish both new mesas and the fords - should be done with it within a week or so - but then I'd like to let it go. Would you be okay with reclaiming this by then, Worsas? I suppose I could handle the rest of it too, but at much slower pace. I'm sorry, but I can't afford so time consuming work now.
Sure. Pass it back and I'll do the rest, when you're done with it.

After all the cleanups and additions everything's looking much better. The path proposal in the file looks great aswell, as does that Reachmen site.

For the re-cluttering of the large hillside, make sure to add some covered boulders and rocks.

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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by berry » Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:03 pm

Passing it back to you, Worsas. :) Apart from the changes listed above, I managed to replace most of Wrothgarian Grapes found within the forest with proper vegetation, downscaled most of the trees that came with the cells from my claim and adjusted Barrow 02 exterior. Haven't generated the grass for the areas I worked on as for yet, though, in case you would want to conduct any landscape adjustments; feel free to send it back to me then when you're done.

There is a path grid that in need of deletion in -107, 12 cell, path grids in a wilderness don't work as good as I expected. :P

Teal vertex paint I used for fords is made of
197
252
247
palette.

I think that's it. It'd be of course fine with me were you to decide to alter anything I did here.

Cheers
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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by worsas » Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:29 pm

Hey berry,
thankyou for the work on this beast.

I have gone through it briefly and there is a lot of new stuff to be seen in here. How you cluttered that mountain slope is a great accomplishment just in itself. Then the small palisades in the forest settlement, the countless cleanups and additions, the new barrow. I doubt I would have done all of these things in an equally good way.

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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by Luxray » Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:19 pm

Hurray for collaborative projects!
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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by berry » Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:57 pm

Anytime, Worsas.

I'm sure you'd nail it, but then, you can't and shouldn'y try to get this whole project done yourself. ;)

I can take this again, if it's still outstanding, like a week before Christmas.

Some more thoughts:
  • I haven't updated this yet to new data version, as you probably have already noticed
  • I would actually suggest reconsidering this new dirt texture, Tx_Skyrim_Rocky_Dirt_07. I already had problems with telling where it is, and where it isn't used, and some texture seams appeared where it bordered with our old and loved Tx_Skyrim_Rocky_Dirt_04. These subtle accents of leaves seen within new texture are a cool touch, but they aren't that visible, and in an eye glance it looks just like Tx_Skyrim_Rocky_Dirt_04 with a dark vertex paint over it. It's an Occam's Razor case to me.
  • I imagine these new forest paths could be as subtle as possible. No landscape adjustments in most of the cases, only this new path texture, outlined by vertex paint, still covered with terrain and vegetation by the edges.
Just noticed some wooden hooks from one of the fords are missing and I have no idea why. I blame this sneaky Fargoth. :P Sorry about that.

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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by worsas » Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:49 pm

I would actually suggest reconsidering this new dirt texture, Tx_Skyrim_Rocky_Dirt_07. I already had problems with telling where it is, and where it isn't used, and some texture seams appeared where it bordered with our old and loved Tx_Skyrim_Rocky_Dirt_04. These subtle accents of leaves seen within new texture are a cool touch, but they aren't that visible, and in an eye glance it looks just like Tx_Skyrim_Rocky_Dirt_04 with a dark vertex paint over it. It's an Occam's Razor case to me.
I don't really share this opinion. To me the new dirt textures are a nice way of distinguishing the forest from the neighbouring regions. The only issue with these dirt textures, perhaps, is that there are no covered rocks for them. Remaining instances of Tx_Skyrim_Rocky_Dirt_04 should be removed from the forest, btw. But I'll probably take care of that myself.

I feel fit enough for finishing this claim. I'd rather have you work on one of the following forest claims, when you have a bit spare time and if you are willing to do so.

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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by roerich » Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:02 pm

Magnificent job, both of you.

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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by worsas » Sun Nov 29, 2015 11:39 pm

This is roughly at 97%-98% and probably only in need of a few last touchups. Any input is welcomed.

2 proposals for the following forest claims:
- No dirt path to the Uramok Camp. These orcs are meant to be nomads, while a road would suggest a constant settlement.
- Adding a little bit more clutter to Karthgad. It's not bad as is, but still feels a bit empty here and there.
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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by Yeti » Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:58 am

I approve of both suggestions.

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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by roerich » Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:18 am

Same. I'd also like to see a bit more of those misc and hidden locations that berry used all over the Druadach Highlands. An overgrown corpse here, a hidden weapon there.. Something to give the player an incentive to explore every inch of the forest.

Off topic, but Worsas, I can't remember if I ever applauded you for your redo of Karthgad. Everything just feels realistic, right and "Skyrim" about that village, and I think it should become an example to follow in truly Nordic cities like Felsundhal, Lainalten, Falkirstad etc. As well as in smaller log cabin villages further east, of course. I especially like the cozy outdoor fireplaces, the placement of the cabins, and the various clutter and animal pens in between the houses.

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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by berry » Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:09 am

It turned out great. I loved it when I stopped to check this abandoned wagon, only to get ambushed by those two orsimer bandits. :) It's great they're not just hovering in the middle of nowhere anymore.

Both suggestions for future claims sound reasonable. How about moving Malagrok to the northern edge of this clearing, and making it's entrance more stand out, as well? Like some daedric claws creeping out of thicket.

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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by roerich » Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:43 am

berry wrote:Like some daedric claws creeping out of thicket.
In_OM_spike01-03 would be good for that. They are anonymous enough in appearance to fit in in a location like this. Having bits from the Daedric set show up in Skyrim (except for some select caves, like here) would appear moddy to me.

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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by Luxray » Tue Dec 01, 2015 6:31 pm

Great work Muspila! I love how you made the area more explorable whilst still keeping it looking great.

Onwards under the flag of progress we march!
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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by worsas » Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:47 pm

After a bunch of further fixes, removals and additions, I'm calling this finished.

- Added some extremely well-hidden pieces of Orichalcum Ore. It would be a nice quest to find a single sample of Orichalcum for one of the Orcs at the Uramok Camp.
- Added a small (non-interior) nord ruin in proximity of the two barrows.
- Added Widow Kiss around burial sites and corpses.
- Merged karthwasten_cave_02 into this file, as it has been finished and reviewed on the old forum.
- Removed many many container plants, but there are still many more and I just couldn't continue committing this crime any further, so have left the remaining ones, although we are not an average of 30 per cell by far. But the taragetis and honey lillies that make up the majority of container plants are very small and often go unnoticed, so I don't think that 30 would have been appropriate anyway.
- fixed a bunch of floating and too-deeply sunken trees and other errors.

Caves without much fog and very few or no lightsources in them, should maybe be given a slightly lighter environmental - and sunlight color. Some of them have average environmental color values of 10 and sunlight color of maybe avg 15 and with certain monitors it's all black. I'm not sure, if we should leave them to give the infravision- and light spells some purpose. But even with a torch in the hand you are completely unable to appreciate the interior design, if you use a monitor like the one I'm currently using and if you don't modify gamma correction (I used to play with an adapting Samsung monitor that dynamically put these dark caves to an appropriate lightness before). On top of that some of exactly these dark caves are very tight and hard to navigate. I would have gone ahead and changed them, but thought I'd only mention it for now. We need to find a good middle ground for them.
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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by berry » Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:12 pm

This new nord ruin is pure gold. How about trying something like that for this empty area in claim 20? Or even two more ruins: one above the river (with water cascading above it's fallen stoneblocks?), and the other one partially leaf-covered within the forest.

It's a stunning work overall, Worsas. I'm so happy you started this overhaul. :D
Caves without much fog and very few or no lightsources in them, should maybe be given a slightly lighter environmental - and sunlight color. Some of them have average environmental color values of 10 and sunlight color of maybe avg 15 and with certain monitors it's all black. I'm not sure, if we should leave them to give the infravision- and light spells some purpose. But even with a torch in the hand you are completely unable to appreciate the interior design, if you use a monitor like the one I'm currently using and if you don't modify gamma correction (I used to play with an adapting Samsung monitor that dynamically put these dark caves to an appropriate lightness before). On top of that some of exactly these dark caves are very tight and hard to navigate. I would have gone ahead and changed them, but thought I'd only mention it for now. We need to find a good middle ground for them.
I agree the pitch black caves come with lots of disadvantages. I think it would suffice for some caves (the grottos especially) if we use some more light bulbs for the atmosphere effect. Vanilla caves with some water use "blue water ref" lights extensively and I think it's a good approach. Ilunibi caverns are a good example here, as they are almost as dark as SHotN's caves.

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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by worsas » Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:43 pm

berry wrote:This new nord ruin is pure gold. How about trying something like that for this empty area in claim 20? Or even two more ruins: one above the river (with water cascading above it's fallen stoneblocks?), and the other one partially leaf-covered within the forest.
I think that another small ruin in the area of 20 could work, when thinking of vanilla in comparison, where several ruins are often just one cell next to each other. As for the ruin above water... as long as it doesn't turn into a major landmark visible across the whole region, I'd say go for it.
berry wrote:It's a stunning work overall, Worsas. I'm so happy you started this overhaul. :D
Thankyou.

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Re: Vorndgad Forest#19 [Worsas]

Post by berry » Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:02 pm

I hadn't seen you moved Hoota's cabin to this location by the time I suggested the ruins above the river. So yeah, that makes those even more redundant.

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