Aldkarth Lowlands (Sky_xRe_29) [spineinside]

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worsas
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Aldkarth Lowlands (Sky_xRe_29) [spineinside]

Post by worsas » Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:52 am

This claim is about updating the area labelled 29 on this overview map:
[hsimg=]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/223 ... claims.jpg[/hsimg]

Please work with Yetis latest file of Karthwasten and Berrys finished exterior claim of the Druadach Highlands.

Related discussion:
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spineinside
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Post by spineinside » Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:20 pm

May I put my hands on this one?

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Post by worsas » Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:42 am

Sure, of course.

It would be best to retrieve your piece of land from the file posted here, as it contains the most up-to-date version of karthwasten and everything else that hasn't been worked on since.

Also, make sure to read our discussion here. Amongst other things we want to get rid of the nord village within this claim.

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Post by roerich » Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:53 am

Like I wrote in that thread, I think we could do with one, perhaps two, small farmsteads here. One or two farm houses fortified with palisades and inhabited by Nord settlers granted this land by King Vyrnod following the victory against Hammerfell-High Rock.

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Post by worsas » Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:02 pm

I somehow thought we had ended up deciding that the nord village in 29 will go, while the one in 27 will stay. At the very least it's what I have recorded on my location map. On the other hand I can't see this decision made anywhere else but in my brain.

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Post by roerich » Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:44 pm

Ah that is probably the case then.

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Post by spineinside » Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:17 am

Hi guys !

This is a quick upload with some changes to the land... that was terribly long, also I think I did something wrong while cleaning the claim and I cannot make the bottom-right cell of the map editable ! Anyone experienced a problem like this?

The changes went through multiplying monumental and smaller rocks with grassy hats, planting more containers, trees and bushes. The ground height diversified so the landscape view seems to be more interesting.

I added a barrow, a mysterious altar on the edge of a cliff, cave entrance at the bottom of the other cliff ( there is a trap hole in a ground a la camp near TESV Whiterun which can be another entrance). There is also a sinking wooden well behind the burned settlement, think I will remove it or change to a destroyed vanilla.
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Post by worsas » Fri Aug 19, 2016 8:23 am

Your work looks excellent. But it also shows the result of bad coordination around here. The discussion thread above doesn't contain some essential information you would have needed for this claim (my and other people's fault), which is scattered across several threads on this forum.

To summarize it:
No grass rocks. They will be kept only in the Druadach Highlands and Midkarth.
Container plants: Dragynia, Persarine, Wither Wheat, Apple, Silver Palm. (all other container plants should go)

You can see that we refashioned the area accordingly in the already completed areas, if you want to check. Those changes have been discussed but were not properly summarized in the Aldkarth region thread. I'm sorry for that.

Other than that I like all of the modifications happening in this area. I also welcome that you cleared the village. It would be good, if the southernmost area of this claim would still offer a bigger point of interest, though. I'd say.. See, if you can make a dwemer site work around there to signalize that this is a border area towards Hammerfell. It would also help if the south-westernmost areas would be made slightly less grassy, with a bit more dirt and dirtgrass instead.

Regarding -101, 0... I have seen the same error in the stirk file of P:C somewhere far out in the Abecean sea. I don't think it's your fault. The CS seems to do this kind of thing sometimes. My proposal would be that you finish the rest of your claim and after that see if you can edit this cell if it is split into a file of its own. In the worst case, we might have to move this cell to different coordinates with TESFaith, edit it there and move it back again.

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Post by berry » Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:46 am

Holy shit, you're like a king of landscape editing. By the first look it feels great as usual. Erect overgrown rocks should indeed go - use this tabel and Edit->Search & Replace function to get this quickly done - but "edgy" overgrown rocks, such as these around the barrow or ones overgrowing a top of a cliff, like these in -104, 0 should be fine, I'd say, as long as a transistion between them and a landscape feels natural (it does in most cases here). To illustrate it better, for example:
[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/UdmZSGh.png[/hsimg]
Lastly, I think nobody will be mad at you if you decide to leave standing overgrown rocks that you have covered with a grass already, at least if you try to fit in surroundings better. We all know how tedious handplacing grass is and seeing it go could be quite frustrating, I believe. :P
Container plants: Dragynia, Persarine, Wither Wheat, Apple, Silver Palm. (all other container plants should go)
Also a red poppy too, isn't it? We definitely need to sum up and set in stone all region properites.
I think I did something wrong while cleaning the claim and I cannot make the bottom-right cell of the map editable ! Anyone experienced a problem like this?
I've experienced this few times too. I believe it happens when a reference in that cell gets placed too high up in sky, and that is mostly created whenever you try to F-drop an object that generally doesn't like F-dropping, such as light or a steam activator. It's a bitch of an issue, because you can't notice anything is wrong when you mod, and then you save, reload, an bam! Things are screwed. Anyway, it looks like there are 3 light refs in that cell - I'd try to remove them in Enchanted Editor for a start and see if that helped.

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Post by Scamp » Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:38 pm

I've definitely had the -101, 0 bug in the Abecean Sea. I couldn't find a good workaround as far as I can remember, wasn't a big deal underwater at that time anyway. I believe it happened when pasting too many objects at a great height. If you have an older backup, perhaps merging your current file without the cell causing problems with just the cell from the older file could help.

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Post by Yeti » Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:12 am

worsas wrote:Regarding -101, 0... I have seen the same error in the stirk file of P:C somewhere far out in the Abecean sea. I don't think it's your fault. The CS seems to do this kind of thing sometimes. My proposal would be that you finish the rest of your claim and after that see if you can edit this cell if it is split into a file of its own. In the worst case, we might have to move this cell to different coordinates with TESFaith, edit it there and move it back again.
I remember something like this occurred over at Tamriel Rebuilt back in the day. A cell in Almalexia wouldn't let the modder edit it properly or something. Turned out to be a weird engine bug, I believe. Not sure what was done to fix the situation, but your plan should work fine, Worsas.

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Post by berry » Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:36 pm

Some more minor remarks on stuff I noticed:
  • Sky_Flora_Bush_Pine_04_02 doesn't belong to the Reach. Other bushes you used are welcome though.
  • we're not as strict when it comes to sparsely using land textures from different regions that we are with misusing other assets, but still, Tx_Skyrim_Deadgrass_02 haven't been used before in the Reach - unless I'm mistaken. If that's not a problem for you, for greater uniformity you can always use Tx_Skyrim_Beaten_Path_01, or maybe Tx_Skyrim_Dirt_03/Tx_Skyrim_rocky_dirt_01. Beaten path texture is used in Reach (I use it as a dirt texture around more unique places like Reachman sacral grounds for example, and it serves as a road texture up in Druadachs too) and these two dirt textures are assigned to Hammerfell, so they'd make sense here too, so close to border. See if they suit you. :)
  • we are generally trying now to quit making "overmakeshifted" and too well hidden dungeon entrances we polluted our landscape with (and by "we" I mostly mean myself, to be fair :D :roll: ) so that's something to take into consideration for you too. The barrow should be fine, even welcome, since we have something similar on Druadach mesa #2 and in your showcase cells too, and that lovely hole in the ground behind it should stay too, as long as they lead to the same interior, old barrow with a cave-in part. On the other hand, that second cave with Sky_Ex_Cave_Door_Natural doors is too well hidden. If you ask me, that would be a good place to have a small "exterior cave" there instead, something like a hidden Reachman stash I did under Direnni road in Druadach Highlands.
  • that altar hanging atop the cliif looks unnatural. You can perhaps try making it using barrow block/platform assets, or make it rest on some sidewalls below?
Once again, it's good, solid work. That hole next to the barrow stole my heart. :)

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Post by spineinside » Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:16 pm

Thank you guys for all the information !!

I'll try follow your suggestions to repair this incontinent cell and should be ready with all the changes of land in a few days :)

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Post by spineinside » Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:46 am

Here are all the changes. I mainly based on berry's claim to make the right balance especially with a ground texture and Hammerfel rocks.
I think I left several grass rocks in a very north-east cell, and there are some with dirt on the south. Thought it will be a smart move :oops: as a transition to the southern, rocky terrain is not that immediate.
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Post by berry » Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:12 pm

It looks and feels great, as far as I'm concerned. :) You did great job with adressing our remarks. Don't worry about few overgrown rocks here and there - the outlines for terrain usage of a region are just the outlines for general impression of the area, and few exceptions from them are welcome. That's how vanilla MW handles it too (a hackle-lo plant just outside Seyda Neen comes to mind, for example).

I thought your Hammerfell rocks' zone reaches too far towards Karthwasten, but it feels ok in-game actually. Remember to add some more details to Hammerfell dirt zones, though - some dry grass/01_03 grass shrubs, palms, rust russulas, persarines, smaller Hammerfell rocks and so on.

I understand the ruined village is a WIP, but I admit I'm curious how it will turn out. I'll abandon the concept of a ruined well and a waterfall, as I'd have no idea how to make it look good myself, but I would love to be proved wrong about it. :P

A minor heads-up: remember to compare it to main SHotN exterior file now, rather than my claim #28 file, as it cointains cells both from claim 28 and 26, thus making the comparision more complete.

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Post by spineinside » Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:33 pm

I found a little time to update my claim too!

Yes, the in-game feeling of a distance between Hamerfel Rocks and Karthwasten seems to be ok, so I am happy you have a similar opinion, berry.

I was wondering if I am going to keep these two burned houses and I made a little overhaul suggesting a destroyed little village that has been cut out from a path some years ago.

Also focused on decorating the beginning of Hammerfel areas - they are enchanted with small rocks and dry grass.
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Post by berry » Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:02 pm

Spineinside, I think you accidentally uploaded a much earlier version - the farm is still here, there are no land textures or Hammerfell rocks, but plenty of overgrown rocks instead. :)

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Post by spineinside » Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:26 pm

oh no, it was a truth !

here is the update :D...
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Post by berry » Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:53 pm

I'm sorry for taking almost two months to reply. I checked it right away, and it was a top notch stuff as always, so I had to have some free time to find something to nitpick on... :twisted: Seriously though, hope it's consctructive and not overly negative. I didn't refer to obviously WIP areas of this claim (like the empty hole in the ruined village, waiting to be filled; or caspering large rocks close to Hammerfell border), but rather focused on some general feedback:
  1. this area currently gives an impression there are few cool eye-catchy points of interest (ruined village; fallen trees ring - by the way, you should change the texture here to dirt/dirtgrass if it is supposed to be without MGE grass; also make sure the ground here is properly vertex painted; barrow; tent), and lots of empty space between them. You could try filling this empty spots with some more small rock groups or bushes (on "Skyrim" ground textures) or proper vegetation (pine trees and dry/dead leafy trees, palms, persarines, poppys, russulas; on "Hammerfell" land textures). I'm a "points of interest man" myself, and not really an expert in creating natural-looking empty lands, so it'd be the best to check Scamp's mesas or especially worsas' nearby Lorchwuir cells for inspiration in that matter. Also I noticed that in most cases you put bushes or container plants next to a rock or a stump, so that particular place gets too crowded, while remaining area is still unfilled. Bushes or plants look great next to rocks, but they should be also placed on their own in the grass, for more detailed enviroment.
  2. I'd say dense tree groves are too common in your claim. They belong more to Druadach Highlands rather than this area. The vegetation in Lorchwuir Heaths is more spread out in general. If it's not a problem, you could try spreading the trees around rather than grouping them so close together. For example, trees in -104, 2 are alright, but these two groves in -101, 2 are probably too dense. Spreading the trees a little more could also help with the emptiness I mentioned above
  3. some of your trees (mostly pines_04, ie. dark green branchy pines) are sunk a little too deep in the ground. It's not an error per se, but they stand out right now, as in all other cells they aren't that deep
  4. some rocks still lack vertex painting. In general it's better to add too much land shading, rather than too little, especially when it comes to painting under/around huge models, like rocks or cliffsides.
  5. among many things I loved here not mentioned before, Hammerfell rock circle around the fire was genious. :P I was like "wait what, since when do we have that asset". Perfect makeshifting here
Some of these points are propably "how berry would have done it", but I tried to take an objective look. We all have our own style when it comes to exteriors, and some diversity is certainly not a bad thing, so you should of course keep making things your way. Still, our exterior cells should be consistent with each other.

It should be also noted you're basically a pioneer here, as we haven't really started developing Hammerfell cells, so you have a liberty to create an outline for this region we'd be following then, pretty much how I did for a grassy part of Druadachs.

Once again, great work on this so far.

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Post by Scamp » Mon Dec 26, 2016 11:52 pm

berry wrote:Also I noticed that in most cases you put bushes or container plants next to a rock or a stump, so that particular place gets too crowded, while remaining area is still unfilled. Bushes or plants look great next to rocks, but they should be also placed on their own in the grass, for more detailed enviroment.
While it certainly is not my intention to backstab, this advice should not be taken as ground truth tbh. In vanilla and TR it's very common to group rocks and flora and leave some free area for players to move around without filling the entire view frustum with all kinds of things. In any case, it should be expected that many players disable grass due to performance issues or personal preference, which leaves us with a situation quite similar to TR's or even vanilla landscapes where isolated plants and bushes might distract from the overall fluidity of the setting.

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Post by berry » Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:32 am

True, it's a good point. I agree about grouping rocks with flora together as a general rule, however it should be done the way that would still allow flora's verticality to enrich the region. Nothing good comes from placing all plants so close to larger references they are not visible (some exceptions are always welcome, of course, especially when it comes to plants prefering shadowy areas, like shrooms or shadowflies) For more natural look, either the rocks should be small-ish or flat-ish (groups of smaller rocks look more appealing in most cases than larger chunks of rock anyway), or the plant can be a little bit further from the rock - still in it's "visual sphere of influence", but far enough to be distinct. Ugh, I'm not really sure I expressed the thought lucidly this time either. :P

On the other hand, the largest bushes (leafy bush #1 in the Reach) can go mostly on their own, or with very small rocks next to them.

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Post by spineinside » Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:59 pm

I took a lesson from Scamp's Mesa reference and Mostly made claim way more interesting to travel through with grass disabled. Deleted groups of trees and rather spread them individually. More vertex painting to add a depth to a ground. And all the newest changes suggested by berry and others are implemented (especially with static flora placement and diversity).

Also changed tents after talking with roerich and added another cave entry in the area of burned village.

PS. finally - data.esm's merged into Tamriel_data :P
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Post by worsas » Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:08 am

I'm really curious how this looks. I can't check it until next month, when I'm back home.

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Post by berry » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:33 pm

It looks great! I love the badlands vibe about it and how this area is wild, but still distinct from Druadach Highlands region. Dry parts feel almost like Tatooine, I can imagine an Old Ben-like figure living in that dirt burrow. :) Great job with the rocks and dirt stains too, feels Scamp-ish indeed.

I think you might have used an outdated patcher to convert this to common data though, as it appears all containers went missing - there are no containter plants, and I recall some already from previous versions of this claim; there are visible bee swarms' markers without their hives and some floaters by the tents, that likely stood on a crate before. If you haven't progressed this further yet, the patcher coming with Tamriel_data file on Nexus should be safe to use instead.

We haven't used leafy bush #4 and #3 for the Reach before (it was intended for Falkreath I think, but it's just my guts speaking, I have no idea really), but I don't mind them here personally. Since your claim is basically a Hammerfell area, we can say they are southern bushes in general, and then use them for Falkreath or anywhere else too. I think bush #3, with it's subtle red flowers, would go very well with poppies, persarines and Hammerfell dry soil. In one of previous iterations of Dragonstar I used these bushes for Jona's palace's garden, and the result was really nice, too. We could do with these three bushes we have for the Reach already as well, but if these work well here, then why not use it? We won't get to any other county in foreseeable future, and it would be a waste not to use this mesh at all, in my opinion. Still, it's just a thought I had, it'd be the best to wait for Muspila to speak up his mind in that matter. I will post some proof of concept screenshots in Aldkarth region thread to present what I had in mind here.

I found one caspererer and one floater as well. Also, make sure to add vertex shading beneath the bushes too, especially these large leafy ones. Other than that, there's little to pick on here. I'd vote to join it with the main file the moment you're finished and make it a part of upcoming release. :geek:

Edit: found another small error


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Post by spineinside » Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:40 am

berry wrote: I think you might have used an outdated patcher to convert this to common data though....
So basically there is no automatic option to make containers reappear? I have to put them back by hand? :o

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Post by worsas » Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:21 am

Do you still have the pre-patch version of the file?

Alternatively the file can only get fixed, if you didn't re-save it in the CS after patching, with a second patch- process that adjusts the container plant ids of the existing instances. I think i still have a translation-list for such a patching process at home, but i cannot really do anything until in two weeks in future.

Definitely get yourself the up-to-date version of Tamriel_Data here and the filepatcher version shipped with it, to prevent further problems:
viewtopic.php?f=179&t=726" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Post by spineinside » Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:18 am

Yes I got the most updated version now and i checked it on another file and it works good :)
I've found backup file before I've changed tents and added several random rock groups so it's not that bad.

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Post by spineinside » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:50 am

Here is a version with containers


EDIT: Damn! sorry for wasting your time, I just realized I didn't commit caspering fixes in this file :(

Fixed caspering and floating things REuploaded now !
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Post by berry » Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:38 pm

I haven't checked the version with fixed caspereres yet, but it looks fantastic with containers back here. Awesome work. Walking around this area is a sheer joy.

On a second thought, I'm not sure about T_Sky_Flora_BushLeaves3 and T_Sky_Flora_BushLeaves4 here. I did some testing, and they don't look that great with Hammerfell soil textures as I imagined they would. :) It'd probably be the best to stick with Reach bushes for this area; but again, worsas is the man to ask about asset continuity.

I have to admit I'm not really convinced about the pit in the village, it looks a little out of place. What would look great in that hollow in my opinion is a ruined basement hidden in foundations of the ruins, with it's top covered by T_Com_SetRuin_Scrapwoods, like it's a burnt floor of the ground floor level, collapsed in one spot for an access to hidden loot in the basement. But then, that's how I'd do it of course, and I tend to add such "exterior interiors" pretty much everywhere. :P

It's great you made sure about making it possible to enter tents and pick all the loot from here. I find it immersion-breaking myself when it's not possible to reach some stuff in a few of our tents (though it's really minor stuff anyway, most of the time)

--

As a sidenote regarding the tents, there's one issue I'd like to mention here. There's this fix available for them, repairing their UV maps and making them use Indoril cloth texture, rather than Mourhold stone, like default ones do, and they look even better that way in my opinion, very Redguard-ish. These tents aren't used by vanilla Tribunal, too, so it'd seem like there's no asset-mixing here: http://i.imgur.com/k7bLrsF.png http://i.imgur.com/icvr1e8.png http://i.imgur.com/gzSJnS9.png The thing is, this fix is already a part of Tamriel_data, and the fixed tent is assigned to Indoril Dunmers, as a T_De_SetInd_X_Tent_01 static. I'm not sure, but from what I recall TR is using this mesh for their Indoril lands... Of course, we are using Dunmer cushions already for Redguards, and these vanilla tents spineinside used here look way different than TR's fixed ones, but still, how about we take the fixed mesh, assign to it Reach textures (taking one of rug/tapestries textures for the cloth?) and add it to the data as T_Rga_SetReach_X_Tent?
Edit: quick test with tx_skyrim_rug_15.dds texture for the cloth: http://i.imgur.com/uG5UzDK.png

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