Gold Coast Exterior: GC_01 [Infragris] [Anvil]

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worsas
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Gold Coast Exterior: GC_01 [Infragris] [Anvil]

Post by worsas » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:56 pm

The city of Anvil and immediate surroundings. Claimed by Praedator.

Thread on the previous forum:
http://provincecyrodiil.project-tamriel ... =230&t=745

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Leon
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Post by Leon » Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:31 pm

I know that I'm not in the exterior department, but there is no update on this since 12 Aug 2014.
With the speed of how fast the interior claims are getting finished, I estimate all current interior claims to be completed around end December.
That being said, exteriors are therefore indirectly my concern, and I would like to unlock these interior claims around the same time when the last remaining interior claims are being finished.
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Post by worsas » Wed Sep 30, 2015 7:21 pm

Right now, we still need the exterior versions of the new imperial cult windows for the Chapel of Dibella. But I can probably make those quickly myself. Other than that St Jiub was working on an alternate version of the big round window. But it'S not required to actually finish the exterior itself. There isn't much left that still needs to be done here.

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Post by griff » Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:09 pm

I am having the same worry's its odd how praedotator has just abandoned this with out even uploading his latest work.

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Post by Scamp » Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:50 pm

There is no way we can open up any Anvil interior claim until the city is done, which is simply not going to happen anytime soon unless Praedator returns.

The city is not very close to being finished, I do not agree with worsas. Then again, I also don't know how we should continue with it. If we end up opening up interior claims for a city that's not final, this will be Almalexia 2.0.

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Post by Leon » Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:58 pm

Scamp wrote:... unless Praedator returns.
Well holy shit.
I know Praedator, worked with him in the past, he can easily disappear for a few years at most.
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Post by Saint_Jiub » Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:34 pm

worsas wrote:Right now, we still need the exterior versions of the new imperial cult windows for the Chapel of Dibella. But I can probably make those quickly myself. Other than that St Jiub was working on an alternate version of the big round window. But it'S not required to actually finish the exterior itself. There isn't much left that still needs to be done here.
Hm, did I not upload those? My bad: https://www.dropbox.com/s/mqfu5t77npz7p ... s.zip?dl=0

Also included my work on the Dibella statue with interior/exterior versions (clean versus weathered)- not sure if I already uploaded that elsewhere.

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Post by Yeti » Mon Feb 08, 2016 9:40 pm

Claiming. It might take me a few days to size up what needs to be done here. I'll have to read through the old thread to get my bearings. I looks like Praedator's most recent file was posted in August 2014. I'd hate for the work he did afterwards to go to waste, but there really isn't much we can do but move forward with what we have. Truly, the work he left us is already a masterpiece in many ways, so we definitely have a great foundation to work off of.

I don't want to set any plans in stone before I give the city a proper, thorough look, but based on Praedator's maps, I do feel trimming a few buildings is needed to make the city more manageable and avoid needless filler interiors. I'm thinking a number of about 90 buildings at most - enough to give the city a grand feel, but not to the point of overindulgence.

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Post by worsas » Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:16 pm

Make sure to exchange the currently placed chapel windows with the new Dibella windows found under the ex_chapel-group. There are a couple of statues to be placed around the city now: Fasil Umbranox, Bendu Olo (they are both important figures in Anvils history) and perhaps an exterior statue of Dibella. The small rooms along the archways of the chapel were intended to be populated with altars devoted to the 8 other divines of imperial faith. Unless Infragris objects against that, I would still add altars there.

With the latest PC_Data you will have some vanishing containers, but it shouldn't too bad, hopefully. Make sure to exchange the old fish statics with the new fish ingredients and - containers (Soldier Fish, Abecean Longfin and Jewelfish).

And another thing I would vote for: Removing the Dibella windows from that Brothel. We should show ties between them and the Dibella Cult in a different way.

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Post by Infragris » Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:31 pm

My thoughts on the current Anvil city design. Some of these are perhaps a little extreme, but I think it is better to air any concerns now than, say, once the city is finished.
  • As you noted yourself, the number of houses is simply too high. Province mods tend to be too ambitious when it comes to cities. I would even advocate bringing the number of interiors down to 80 (perhaps by connecting a number of poor interiors as large apartments/flophouses).
  • A small note about the statues: the bronze statue of Fasil was envisioned to be placed in the courtyard of the castle. I think there's a good place for it there now. Bendu Olo should be somewhere around the harbor, and scaled significantly larger than it is now. Also, I would prefer if they were set up like statics instead of named activators, like the statues in Vivec.
  • Castle meshes should be switched with the appropriate retextured meshes (ex_pc_imp_...)
  • The castle walls look ... odd to me, can't quite explain. Perhaps they are too large and solid compared to the other buildings, or perhaps it is the difference in texture look/quality. While I realize a lot of work has already gone into these wall meshes, it might be wise to re-imagine them somewhat, either by changing the texture to follow the castle or town textures, or by editing the mesh to make them less thick and have practical details (doors, walkways, stairs). The use of the walls inside the city also doesn't quite make sense, especially the walling off of the poor district.
  • About the poor district: probably too late to change this, but for another city it might make make sense to put it outside the city walls, clustered around the main gate for example.
  • Regarding the high-class brothel: I propose switching its location with manor 5 on the designation map, right next tot the temple. If possible, we should connect both locations with a wall or something, make it a secluded monastery type of thing. Also, underground passages between the temple and the brothel.
  • The sacred garden opposite the temple feels a bit too much like a public park. The garden should be more mysterious, secluded, in the spirit of he deity. Perhaps it would make sense to move it to an interior (acts like exterior), so that it can have an actual lover's maze and dense vegetation without framerate issues. The outside could be a wall of trees (or just a literal garden wall).
  • I have no problem with putting altars in the niches around the temple. Perhaps it would make sense to have them as altars to certain Dibellan saints instead of the Divines? Not sure.
  • I would replace manor 3, 4, and perhaps even 6 with one massive manor complex. This is the Praetorium, the most important governmental institute of the Gold Coast, consisting of both archives, offices, and the personal villa of the Praetor.
  • Same thing for 22, the hotel/casino place. It's an important location in Anvil, and this should be reflected in the size, perhaps by annexing the houses to the side or opposite the street.

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Post by worsas » Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:36 pm

The castle walls look ... odd to me, can't quite explain. Perhaps they are too large and solid compared to the other buildings, or perhaps it is the difference in texture look/quality. While I realize a lot of work has already gone into these wall meshes, it might be wise to re-imagine them somewhat, either by changing the texture to follow the castle or town textures, or by editing the mesh to make them less thick and have practical details (doors, walkways, stairs). The use of the walls inside the city also doesn't quite make sense, especially the walling off of the poor district.
Are you referring to the castle walls (ex_pc_imp_) or to the city walls?

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Post by Scamp » Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:37 pm

Infragris wrote: [...] I would even advocate bringing the number of interiors down to 80 (perhaps by connecting a number of poor interiors as large apartments/flophouses).
I can only support this. Think about how long it took to complete all interiors for Stirk, and that's just half the size.
Infragris wrote: About the poor district: probably too late to change this, but for another city it might make make sense to put it outside the city walls, clustered around the main gate for example.
Good point - unfortunate that it comes up just now. If we decide that it should be changed, it'd have to be one of the first things to change, as it would greatly affect the whole city layout. Then again, since we'll end up cutting a whole bunch of interiors, we might have to change the layout anyway.
Infragris wrote: The sacred garden opposite the temple feels a bit too much like a public park. The garden should be more mysterious, secluded, in the spirit of he deity. Perhaps it would make sense to move it to an interior (acts like exterior), so that it can have an actual lover's maze and dense vegetation without framerate issues. The outside could be a wall of trees (or just a literal garden wall).
Sounds difficult - unless we make it a part of an actual building (similar to Victus' Manor on Stirk) in reduced form. The issue I see with your suggestion is to make it inaccessible to the player from the exterior, while at the same time making it look even decent. Unfortunately, players in Morrowind could come from any direction due to levitation and jump enhancements.

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Post by Yeti » Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:28 pm

I'll respond too the the suggestions here later, once I've looked over the city. For now, I'll say I can get behind the 80 interior size. Sounds like a healthy number of buildings.

I will say, I don't like using the Imperial legion fort set for the town's castle. It doesn't match the Gold Coast architecture at all. Not sure if there's a reasonable alternative, though.

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Post by Infragris » Tue Feb 09, 2016 11:06 pm

worsas wrote:Are you referring to the castle walls (ex_pc_imp_) or to the city walls?
I mean the city walls. The problem seems to be that they don't follow the texture/architecture style of either the town or the castle. I also think it's a bad precedent to make a new city wall tileset for every major city, like we seem to be doing now.
Yeti wrote:I don't like using the Imperial legion fort set for the town's castle. It doesn't match the Gold Coast architecture at all.
There's a retex of the imperial meshes in data which follows the color scheme of the coast more closely. Future castles in the Colovian regions will probably use adapted versions of the Reman ruins set, which seems more appropriate. In the case of Anvil, it actually checks out because the castle was built less than a hundred years ago by the first Count Umbranox.
Scamp wrote:The issue I see with your suggestion is to make it inaccessible to the player from the exterior, while at the same time making it look even decent. Unfortunately, players in Morrowind could come from any direction due to levitation and jump enhancements.
Yeah, you're right - I hadn't considered levitation spells. Still, the garden should be a bit more involved.

Another thing: there was a lot of talk of adding sewers to the city. We don't have a sewer tileset yet, but we do have appropriate sewer grates in data. These should also be added to the city.

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Post by worsas » Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:12 am

To add to the general complication: Doesn't the Golden Road end at the gates of Anvil? That would call for reworking a section of the currently existing road with the new highway assets. The highway could even continue a bit into the town, maybe stopping at the harbour.

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Post by Infragris » Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:46 am

That was the idea, yes. I suppose editing the cells along the road shouldn't be too much of a problem. The coastlands are a bit of a wilderness, so it shouldn't be too strange if the road is "badly maintained", so to speak.

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Post by Yeti » Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:50 pm

Just wanted to let everyone know I plan to start work on this tomorrow. I'll post a plan that takes the feedback here, and my own thoughts, into consideration.

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Post by Yeti » Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:32 am

Can someone else post Praedator's most recent file here? I can't figure out my password for the old forum.

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Post by worsas » Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:05 am

there does not seem to be a downloadable file in that thread anymore. But I have one here that should match the latest file uploaded by Praedator.
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Post by Scamp » Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:35 pm

There are still files there, it's just that no file has been posted since Aug 12, 2014. That's on page 7. The file is called Prae_O-P-Q6-7_Anvil_1_0.esp though, so I'd assume this is the same thing.

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Post by Infragris » Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:56 pm

This is the last one I have, along with the interior designation map. I think it's the same file as above, not sure.
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Post by Yeti » Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:45 pm

Here's a quick map some ideas thrown onto it.

I've consolidated the eastern manors into the Praetorium and the high-class brothel, as Infragris suggested, and found a place for the Bendu Olo statue by creating a plaza down by the harbor. I've cut many superfluous buildings on the city's outskirts that don't contribute much to fleshing out the city's identity. More probably needs to be cut or consolidated, but I think these subtractions are a good place start.

I've also removed one of the walls dividing the poor district from the rest of the town to help the settlement flow together better. I rather like how the city wall models currently look, to be honest, at least in terms of their general design and colors.

I side against having sewers here. They'd require too much work, and unless there's a very compelling concept for them, they wouldn't add much to the world.

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Post by griff » Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:09 pm

I feel like the whole land that sticks out with the lighthouse on the end needs to be scraped it just looks our of place and how the hell do boats get in and out of the harbour. And I'm not a fan of this whole poor district, rich district etc. It should just all merge together. Yea theres poor parts and rich parts but to have every poor git in one section is not right. Maybe split it and have a part the other side of the city

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Post by Yeti » Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:19 am

Yeah, I wasn't too fond of the lighthouse land area either. But I believe it's meant to give Anvil a fortified harbor and it doesn't look as bad in-game as it does as in an overhead shot. I also think thinning it a bit - as I've drawn in my map - and perhaps widening the harbor entrance could ease its problematic elements.

Then again, I can also see how opening up the harbor and moving the lighthouse to the current location of Interior 99 could also produce nice results.

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Post by worsas » Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:52 am

The thing about the apple orchard, you want to cut, in Anvil is that its currently the only place in the gold coast providing the apples for the production of Aliyew, the infamous apple cider.

The city doesn't even nearly have as many taverns as it should have. Balmora alone had 4 taverns for it and Anvil as a harbour place really calls for a multitude of shanty inns and taverns.

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Post by griff » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:11 am

We can easily place more apple farms, Cutting it from anvil makes sense to me. Lots of Taverns I'd have at least two along the harbour.

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Post by Infragris » Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:26 pm

These all seem like good edits. We should add more orchards and common farms elsewhere, though, especially if we're to cut the farm outside the city gates. Perhaps some roadside farms and houses can be added along with the Imperial Highway.

Since you are removing most of the houses in the graveyard/orchard area, it would make sense to remove the wall over there and run a new wall just above the graveyard (or even above the Navy HQ). Historically, graveyards were often built outside of city walls.

I'm not sure about the taverns. If we count the brothels and the inns, we already have about seven tavern-like places. Perhaps some lower-class gambling houses would be appropriate, mirroring the upper-class casino.

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Post by Scamp » Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:14 pm

Yeti wrote:[...]Then again, I can also see how opening up the harbor and moving the lighthouse to the current location of Interior 99 could also produce nice results.
This. The narrow harbor works for Baan Malur, but here it makes little sense in comparison to our huge warships. Besides - if you end up cutting all of the houses on the peninsula, there is not much left except for an unnecessarily long walkway with little to enjoy for the player.

I'd also kill the stone platforms next to #99. They look weird and have no particular purpose reaching out that far.

Maybe we're overdoing it with the ships in the harbor. It should always be kept in mind that Morrowind used ships very sparingly, and while Cyrodiil presumably has much more naval activity, it should be kept on a scale that we know and that compares well with the original game. In any case the number of small galleons should be reduced to 3-4 (I realize that one ship comes up twice in your overview).

I also wish it wouldn't take up more than 9 cells, but it's a little to late to change that now.

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Post by Yeti » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:15 pm

worsas wrote:The thing about the apple orchard, you want to cut, in Anvil is that its currently the only place in the gold coast providing the apples for the production of Aliyew, the infamous apple cider.
I'd rather not muddle up Anvil's image as a bustling commercial port with agriculture. It makes more sense for it to import apples from the countryside. We should add apple orchards nearby, but not make them part of the city proper.
worsas wrote:The city doesn't even nearly have as many taverns as it should have. Balmora alone had 4 taverns for it and Anvil as a harbour place really calls for a multitude of shanty inns and taverns.
My map is more concerned with the location of buildings than the final purposes they serve, so more taverns could be added. That said, I'd also rather we focus our efforts on making the city's current inns super memorable, rather than simply adding more of them. Having multiple inns in a settlement also doesn't serve much purpose gameplay-wise, unless we use some purely for flavor and quests. A gambling/skooma den in the poor part of town, for instance, sounds fun to me.
Infragris wrote:Since you are removing most of the houses in the graveyard/orchard area, it would make sense to remove the wall over there and run a new wall just above the graveyard (or even above the Navy HQ). Historically, graveyards were often built outside of city walls.
Yes, I think this can be pulled off in-game nicely. And Scamp has made a good argument for removing the peninsula, making it even easier to pull off. I'll see what I can do reworking the landscape in that area. I also agree with him that the number of ships is a excessive.

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Post by griff » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:03 pm

A gambling/skooma den in the poor part of town
skooma like any high end drug in really life is expensive and for people with wealth. Me on a low wage would not thing of buying cocaine i'd buy some pills (unless its a fancy night). I feel its the same for the npcs. skooma in my mind is for the upper classes, where as moon sugar is cheap and for the working class folk.
Yeti wrote:[...]Then again, I can also see how opening up the harbor and moving the lighthouse to the current location of Interior 99 could also produce nice results.
I am still not a fan. moving the light house to the area of 99 is right on the corner and would act more as a marker then a warning. Would it be possible to make a island with the lighthouse on or is that to much ?

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